Should Paizo Consider Fractional Credits?

[moosher12]

The credit being a base unit of currency, of course makes sense, I will not deny that. And in Starfinder 1E, it would not have been needed, based on what I've studied of the Core Rulebook. But the problem is, Pathfinder, and it's economy, which has been tied to the Starfinder Economy. 1 silver piece is supposed to have the same purchasing power as 1 credit.

But the problem is, like Pathfinder 1E going into 2E, Starfinder 1E has experienced a price crunch going into 2E. For example, let's look at the Arc Pistol, it went from 750 C to 25 C, and then the Laser Rifle, it went from 425 C to 60 C. What does this mean? It means that the credit is a lot more powerful of a unit of currency in 2E than it is in 1E. But the problem with being more powerful, is that for some services, you are overspending. Look at how you also went from starting with 1000 C to 150 C

When we compare the price of a basic service in Pathfinder to Starfinder, for example, a square meal, which would be 0.3 C, now costs 1 C. 3 times it's price. An item of street food that might cost 0.1 C? It is now 1 C. A fighting knife, here, has the same price as two AbadarMart Chocobars would. A single chocobar would have the same price as a burger, fries, and drink from your local Harpies Drive-In.

The Starfinder 1E Core Rulebook said that "some credsticks are designed to allow fractional credit purchases," establishing that fractional credits exist.

In short, should cheaper services, like food, snacks, rations, room and board, and bits and bobbles on the lower end be considered on a fractional scale of 0.1 to 0.9 credits for consistency with the copper piece? Especially now that 1 credit in Starfinder 2E, can do a lot more than 1 Credit can do in Starfinder 1E?

[Wellquest]

Cred-Lites (just called Lites) should definitely be a thing.

[ElementalofCuteness]

I don't think it makes a big deal either way.

[Themetricsystem]

If they publish something like this I honestly think there is a case to be made for actual cash to fill the role, not COINS but actually high-quality paper(cloth) bills, you can call them dollars, sub-cred, whatever you like, but have them be technologically and magically difficult or impossible to manufacture and be worth 1/100th of a credit and carried around in their person. It is like real life where it is impractical to carry around cash for large/expensive purposes but the idea that you need to whip out your card/computer for EVERY little thing doesn't really make a whole lot of sense, especially in situations/places where power/electricity and net connectivity isn't really needed/easy to get.

[moosher12]

ElementalofCuteness wrote:

I don't think it makes a big deal either way.

It kind of does when you get the same amount of money in Starfinder as Pathfinder, but base necessities in Starfinder cost more than their equivalent in Pathfinder.

[moosher12]

Themetricsystem wrote:

If they publish something like this I honestly think there is a case to be made for actual cash to fill the role, not COINS but actually high-quality paper(cloth) bills, you can call them dollars, sub-cred, whatever you like, but have them be technologically and magically difficult or impossible to manufacture and be worth 1/100th of a credit and carried around in their person. It is like real life where it is impractical to carry around cash for large/expensive purposes but the idea that you need to whip out your card/computer for EVERY little thing doesn't really make a whole lot of sense, especially in situations/places where power/electricity and net connectivity isn't really needed/easy to get.

Credits actually exist as physical bills according to the Starfinder 1E Core Rulebook. 1/10th of a credit is more than enough though. It would track with the copper piece, which it would be equivalent to. And it prevents the math from becoming too tedious.

Core Rulebook pg. 166 wrote:

Many worlds still retain coins or other forms of physical money from the time before the Pact, and they may occasionally use them for local trade. However, the standard unit of currency in the Pact Worlds (and the Starfinder RPG rules) is the credit. All interplanetary business is conducted in standardized credits, thanks to their backing and regulation through the Pact Worlds government and the church of Abadar. Converting a world’s economy to the credit standard is a requirement of joining the Pact Worlds, and even worlds far outside the Pact’s official jurisdiction often prefer to use them, since they are so universally carried and understood.

Credits are a combination of digital and physical currency. Most individuals and corporations in Starfinder store their funds digitally in accounts with major banking houses, protected by the strongest spells and encryption money can buy. Yet the price of such security is high: accessing these funds requires jumping through significant hoops, and official transactions between accounts must be transparent to government and banking officials, making true privacy impossible.

[Tempest_Knight]

Would have been easier to just value set the Credit to equal 1 CP...

It would give you the bigger numbers people would expect for modern/future costs...

PF2 Adventurer's Pack costs 1.5 gp... that would be 150 credits... $150 would be a steal for a good backpack and basic camping/adventuring gear in the modern world...

It would also, generally remove the need for fractional credits...

[moosher12]

Tempest_Knight wrote:

Would have been easier to just value set the Credit to equal 1 CP...

It would give you the bigger numbers people would expect for modern/future costs...

PF2 Adventurer's Pack costs 1.5 gp... that would be 150 credits... $150 would be a steal for a good backpack and basic camping/adventuring gear in the modern world...

It would also, generally remove the need for fractional credits...

A thing I should note is that in Pathfinder 2E, the copper piece is not the "base unit of currency" in the way that a penny is not the base unit of currency in the US monetary system. The base unit of currency is the silver, and coppers are used as a sub unit for smaller purchases.

Though I am in somewhat support of the idea of letting 1 Credit equal 1 copper, in the way that the base unit of currency for the Japanese yen, is not 1 yen, but 100 yen.

The only problem I have with it is the more realistic aspect of this is that Starfinder characters would and should see the 10 credit unit as the base unit of currency, instead of 1 credit. But that's a more difficult concept for us westerners to work with since our monetary systems don't work like that, which is why I think a fractional system will be better received for the majority of Starfinder's actual audience. Similar reason to why Pathfinder and Starfinder use imperial units instead of metric.

For example, 150 credits in this unit would not be 150 dollars. It'd be 15.0 dollars. The way a 4000 yen purchase, is talked about as if you were carrying 40 dollars. This misconception I just had to explain is also an example of how it's less intuitive for westerners to work with a base unit of currency that works more like the yen and less like the dollar.

[Tempest_Knight]

The in-universe base is a rice grain of polymer... the UPB...

So you must either spend 10 times the value to make a CP equivalent item if the UPB = 1 SP... or reset the UPB to equal 1 CP...

[moosher12]

Tempest_Knight wrote:

The in-universe base is a rice grain of polymer... the UPB...

So you must either spend 10 times the value to make a CP equivalent item if the UPB = 1 SP... or reset the UPB to equal 1 CP...

Assuming 1 Credit = 1 sp, that can still work. As UPB is largely used in crafting, you can use it to produce sub 1 cred items in bulk, instead of for the 1.

Assuming 1 credit = 1 cp, definitely easy to work with the UPB cost that way.

Either way, rations exist, and rations cost 4 sp for a week's supply, (or in my home rules, 35 cp, for a clean 5 cp per day's supply). So by vanilla, 1 credit can get you, 1 and 3/4ths of a ration. But that's for crafting, much of what you'd be spending coppers on won't be stuff to craft with UPBs. That's a night at a dodgy, cheap motel, a meal from a fast food restaurant, a candy bar from a convenience store, or a piece of street food while you're going about a market. Not really stuff you craft for survival, more stuff you buy on the immersive side of a TTRPG. Not tactical or strategic purchases, roleplaying purchases.

[Perpdepog]

Tempest_Knight wrote:

The in-universe base is a rice grain of polymer... the UPB...

So you must either spend 10 times the value to make a CP equivalent item if the UPB = 1 SP... or reset the UPB to equal 1 CP...

Or you state that a single UPB can make ten of whatever the thing that costs 1cp is. A single UPB could be crafted into ten candles, for example. Likewise you could have other costs cascade off from that fact, like a single credit being enough to purchase ten poor quality meals, etc.

[VampByDay]

Perpdepog wrote:

Tempest_Knight wrote:

The in-universe base is a rice grain of polymer... the UPB...

So you must either spend 10 times the value to make a CP equivalent item if the UPB = 1 SP... or reset the UPB to equal 1 CP...

Or you state that a single UPB can make ten of whatever the thing that costs 1cp is. A single UPB could be crafted into ten candles, for example. Likewise you could have other costs cascade off from that fact, like a single credit being enough to purchase ten poor quality meals, etc.

That’s how I’d do ammunition. One credit buys 10 bullets/playing cards (I really want to use the cardslinger!). Might make it more enticing to make a bullet character because, as it is, why would you ever do that when a battery can be recharged but bullets can’t?

[Perpdepog]

VampByDay wrote:

Perpdepog wrote:

Tempest_Knight wrote:

The in-universe base is a rice grain of polymer... the UPB...

So you must either spend 10 times the value to make a CP equivalent item if the UPB = 1 SP... or reset the UPB to equal 1 CP...

Or you state that a single UPB can make ten of whatever the thing that costs 1cp is. A single UPB could be crafted into ten candles, for example. Likewise you could have other costs cascade off from that fact, like a single credit being enough to purchase ten poor quality meals, etc.

That’s how I’d do ammunition. One credit buys 10 bullets/playing cards (I really want to use the cardslinger!). Might make it more enticing to make a bullet character because, as it is, why would you ever do that when a battery can be recharged but bullets can’t?

I'm all but certain that has to be some kind of misprint, myself. It's just TBTT otherwise.

[moosher12]

TBTT?

And agreed. In 1E, a bullet would cost 1.33 credits per small arm round, and 3 credits per long arm round, putting it near 1 credit per bullet. Problematically, whoever coded the bullet cost likely did not take into account the economy crunch, where 1 credit in 2E would be a lot more powerful than a credit in 1E. Which is to say, if something's price stays the same from 1E to 2E, it has become a lot more expensive between editions.

For example, a semi automatic pistol is 260 C in 1E, and 30 C in 2E. 8.66 times the price.

A scattergun is 235 C in 1E, and 40 C in 2E, 5.86 times the price.

A laser rifle is 425 C in 1E, and 60 C in 2E, 7 times the price.

Finally, a flamethrower is 780 C in 1E, and 70 C in 2E, 10.4 times the price.

Main point being. bullets did not get a proprtional decrease in price on the level other equipment did.

1 Credit should certainly get you a pack of 10 bullets.

And to VampByDay, a deck of playing cards costs 5 sp. So assuming Starfinder uses Pathfinder prices, 5 credits should get you 1 deck for 54 cards, which, go figure, is a little over 10 cards a credit.

[Perpdepog]

moosher12 wrote:

TBTT?

Sorry, I misspelled; I meant TBTBT, or "Too Bad To Be True."

[VampByDay]

moosher12 wrote:

TBTT?

And agreed. In 1E, a bullet would cost 1.33 credits per small arm round, and 3 credits per long arm round, putting it near 1 credit per bullet. Problematically, whoever coded the bullet cost likely did not take into account the economy crunch, where 1 credit in 2E would be a lot more powerful than a credit in 1E. Which is to say, if something's price stays the same from 1E to 2E, it has become a lot more expensive between editions.

For example, a semi automatic pistol is 260 C in 1E, and 30 C in 2E. 8.66 times the price.

A scattergun is 235 C in 1E, and 40 C in 2E, 5.86 times the price.

A laser rifle is 425 C in 1E, and 60 C in 2E, 7 times the price.

Finally, a flamethrower is 780 C in 1E, and 70 C in 2E, 10.4 times the price.

Main point being. bullets did not get a proprtional decrease in price on the level other equipment did.

1 Credit should certainly get you a pack of 10 bullets.

And to VampByDay, a deck of playing cards costs 5 sp. So assuming Starfinder uses Pathfinder prices, 5 credits should get you 1 deck for 54 cards, which, go figure, is a little over 10 cards a credit.

Yeah, but I was talking about the cardslinger, a gun that shoots playing cards, and while it says in the flavor text that cards are used for ammunition, it gives no mechanical rules, so we are forced to assume that 1 card projectile equals one credit :-/

[moosher12]

VampByDay wrote:

Yeah, but I was talking about the cardslinger, a gun that shoots playing cards, and while it says in the flavor text that cards are used for ammunition, it gives no mechanical rules, so we are forced to assume that 1 card projectile equals one credit :-/

I'm aware you were talking about the card slinger. But there is enough in the flavortext to tell you what you need.

Playtest Rulebook wrote:

This ceramic weapon sharpens and fires playing cards, such as those from a harrow deck.

It sharpens and fires playing cards. It does not say it needs specialized card like ammunition, just regular old playing cards, or really any card. A pack of unused lands from your Arcane the Gathering collection will do. Both playing cards and harrow cards have an established cost within the system. So it's not unreasonable within the description to assume that to buy a deck would do the job. But what was most important was the price. Note that if you buy a deck, it nets a price per card that's very similar to reducing the price per bullet to 10 bullets per credit.

Because frankly, if a deck of cards if 52 credits, then dang. Those cards better be gilded, holographic works of art. (Side note, I wonder if it was a reference to playing card standard deck sizes to give the Card Slinger a cost of 52 credits)

[QuidEst]

If we get rules for partial credits, would they be written by Dust Ight, Jen Ski, or Thur Man?

[moosher12]

QuidEst wrote:

If we get rules for partial credits, would they be written by Dust Ight, Jen Ski, or Thur Man?

My apologies but I don't get the joke

[moosher12]

All seriousness all it would need is a one- to two-sentence clarification.

Starfinder Core Rulebook wrote:

In most technologically advanced urban areas, no one bothers to track fractions of credits, and few things cost a fraction of a credit. Mass production makes it cheaper to sell entire suits of clothing, prebundled into 1-credit packages, than to sell individual items worth less than a credit each. However, some credsticks are designed to allow fractional credit purchases.

All you'd have to do is swap this out for saying something to accommodate the economy crunch by replacing this, and explain that small purchases of very cheap items and services can be made in fractions of a credit as low as 1/10th, and throw in some examples of cheap adventuring gear like chalk and a bar of soup from a convenience store (as opposed to bulk boxes from some one of AbadarCorp's Sam's Club equivalents), a ball and some simple trinkets from a toy store, or a mask from your local Spirit Halloween, not even some Starfinderized version, they straight up somehow set up shop In Absalom Station too...

[Perpdepog]

moosher12 wrote:

QuidEst wrote:

If we get rules for partial credits, would they be written by Dust Ight, Jen Ski, or Thur Man?

My apologies but I don't get the joke

Those are all the names of the Starfinder 2E developers, but with several letters removed. If their names showed up in the book that way they would be "partial credits."

[moosher12]

Perpdepog wrote:

moosher12 wrote:

QuidEst wrote:

If we get rules for partial credits, would they be written by Dust Ight, Jen Ski, or Thur Man?

My apologies but I don't get the joke

Those are all the names of the Starfinder 2E developers, but with several letters removed. If their names showed up in the book that way they would be "partial credits."

....OOOOOH Thank you! I assumed the tone was in some way a joke, so tried to search the names to see if I could decipher it, but when nothing came up, yeah. No, no, no. That's very good QuidEst. XD

[QuidEst]

moosher12 wrote:

Perpdepog wrote:

moosher12 wrote:

QuidEst wrote:

If we get rules for partial credits, would they be written by Dust Ight, Jen Ski, or Thur Man?

My apologies but I don't get the joke

Those are all the names of the Starfinder 2E developers, but with several letters removed. If their names showed up in the book that way they would be "partial credits."

....OOOOOH Thank you! I assumed the tone was in some way a joke, so tried to search the names to see if I could decipher it, but when nothing came up, yeah. No, no, no. That's very good QuidEst. XD

*bows*