Title. I really liked Witchwarper being a Charisma class in SF1, indicating an almost intuitive understanding of their abilities. Additionally, it'd be difficult to port over certain Witchwarpers from the old system without a lot of retooling--which, of course, is to be expected from an edition bump, but I feel like at the very least attribute scores should remain similar...
I'm not sure if they think it'd be stepping on Psychic's toes too much, but their choice of anchor or even their paradox allowing them to change to CHA would be appreciated.
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Covering the six main stats with the six classes seems extremely purposeful. Some might not enjoy that bit of book theming, but from the perspective of new players opening up the book and experiencing the system, its very neat and pretty. I think that bit of core book salesmanship outweighs one or two instances of mismatched expectations.
Covering the six main stats with the six classes seems extremely purposeful. Some might not enjoy that bit of book theming, but from the perspective of new players opening up the book and experiencing the system, its very neat and pretty. I think that bit of core book salesmanship outweighs one or two instances of mismatched expectations.
My big question is why the witch warper and not the mechanic, technomancer, precog or the bio hacker? Even reading the class the witch warper feels cha, not int. I would prefer fewer cha casters but they kind of made their bed on this one by choosing this one as one of the core six and it doesn't vibe as an int class. It also doesn't vibe as a core class to me but that's neither here nor there
Covering the six main stats with the six classes seems extremely purposeful. Some might not enjoy that bit of book theming, but from the perspective of new players opening up the book and experiencing the system, its very neat and pretty. I think that bit of core book salesmanship outweighs one or two instances of mismatched expectations.My big question is why the witch warper and not the mechanic, technomancer, precog or the bio hacker? Even reading the class the witch warper feels cha, not int. I would prefer fewer cha casters but they kind of made their bed on this one by choosing this one as one of the core six and it doesn't vibe as an int class. It also doesn't vibe as a core class to me but that's neither here nor there
This is speculation on my part but I think WW was chosen because it's a caster class that's reasonable representation for both arcane and occult. In the field tests they made it clear that they didn't intend to give mystic any occult support. Yes, it's something they walked back on with Akashic (extremely haphazardly might I add), but it's something that nonetheless would have affected their choice of core classes during initial playtesting.
Most of the classes you describe would almost certainly be inappropriate for one of those traditions, or even be fully non-caster. I admit I don't know how true that would have been for precog specifically because I don't get precog, 1e mechanics scare me, and the blurb on AoN doesn't help make it much clearer. All I know is that Paizo thought precog was similar enough to WW to be absorbed outright, and that it would suck for a system to ship with an entire spell list not being covered by any class.
Granted that could have been solved by simply making mystic be able to take occult from the start and filling the gap with technomancer or something, but I figure Paizo thought that would oversaturate one of the caster classes too much. Imagine if PF2e shipped with wizard and sorcerer as the only caster classes, three out of four caster players would pick sorcerer out of sheer necessity.
This is speculation on my part but I think WW was chosen because it's a caster class that's reasonable representation for both arcane and occult. In the field tests they made it clear that they didn't intend to give mystic any occult support. Yes, it's something they walked back on with Akashic (extremely haphazardly might I add), but it's something that nonetheless would have affected their choice of core classes during initial playtesting.
Most of the classes you describe would almost certainly be inappropriate for one of those traditions, or even be fully non-caster. I admit I don't know how true that would have been for precog specifically because I don't get precog, 1e mechanics scare me, and the blurb on AoN doesn't help make it much clearer. All I know is that Paizo thought precog was similar enough to WW to be absorbed outright, and that it would suck for a system to ship with an entire spell list not being covered by any class.
Granted that could have been solved by simply making mystic be able to take occult from the start and filling the gap with technomancer or something, but I figure Paizo thought that would oversaturate one of the caster classes too much. Imagine if PF2e shipped with wizard...
Precog I also think is non-core material but it was dex/int before and could be just int in this game, and it also could be occult or arcane. I don't think they should have focused on representing the traditions as much as aspects of the world. Nobody is a tech class in the core book, and I really think it should have been 7 or 8 classes not 6. It is what it is now, but I think it's just plain weird that the witchwarper is an int class
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I'd definitely be happier with Cha / Int. So many of my Witchwarper concepts are charisma-based: imposing will on reality, tricksters, isekai protagonists, etc.
Keep Int only. I have a hunch Technomancer will be Cha and an animist spirit of the machine whisperer this time.
Keep Int only. I have a hunch Technomancer will be Cha and an animist spirit of the machine whisperer this time.
I would riot
I don't wanna understate this, I am so unbelievably mad at that idea and it isn't even real| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The weak must be purged. The PF1 to PF2 Paladin rebels were similarly unmourned.
Question: If WitchWarper is CHA-based, how are they mechanically different from a Sorcerer?
It feels to me like mechanically, a CHA-based WitchWarper would be a Sorcerer with a small class archetype and some custom Bloodlines.
Their focus on their quantum aura, mostly, I think.Question: If WitchWarper is CHA-based, how are they mechanically different from a Sorcerer?
It feels to me like mechanically, a CHA-based WitchWarper would be a Sorcerer with a small class archetype and some custom Bloodlines.
And giving up Blood Magic. That would be the Class Archetype part. Trading out Blood Magic effects when casting certain spells for Quantum Aura effects when casting certain spells.
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I really like int-based witchwarper.
Variable KAS might be okay, but it shouldn't be tied to any other choice.
I simply don't like even more CHA caster classes
If we take Paizo at their word and Starfinder 2e is mostly meant to stand on its own, then what I propose would make Witchwarper the only CHA-based caster (and only partially at that).
Covering the six main stats with the six classes seems extremely purposeful. Some might not enjoy that bit of book theming, but from the perspective of new players opening up the book and experiencing the system, its very neat and pretty. I think that bit of core book salesmanship outweighs one or two instances of mismatched expectations.
I didn't notice this, and I generally agree, but I think that if Operative is allowed to have a "niche" Strength build to fit character concepts or fantasies, there is room for Witchwarper to do that too with a class option. Maybe 1 CHA-based class choice for every 2 or 3 INT-based ones, y'know?
And giving up Blood Magic. That would be the Class Archetype part. Trading out Blood Magic effects when casting certain spells for Quantum Aura effects when casting certain spells.Their focus on their quantum aura, mostly, I think.Question: If WitchWarper is CHA-based, how are they mechanically different from a Sorcerer?
It feels to me like mechanically, a CHA-based WitchWarper would be a Sorcerer with a small class archetype and some custom Bloodlines.
That feels a little reductive to me. Sorc's main defining mechanic is bloodline magic; without it, it's an "any-tradition repertoire caster".
---I'm championing for semi-CHA Witchwarper in part because I think it fits with the vision of Witchwarper outlined in Captain Concierge's sidebar--about how the class has shades of neurodivergence in it. Being neurodivergent myself, I think it'd be cool to see more aspects of spontaneity or impulsivity in their magic.
(I admit that it's also because I've grown attached to my 1e Witchwarper, haha.)
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I deeply miss Charisma for Witchwarper. It fits, especially with how Paizo has been defining charisma in the 2e systems. It's the attribute connected to enacting your self onto the world. Thaumaturges in Pathfinder wield this to manifest connections that cause weaknesses. The class designed around playing with reality should have at least the option to use Charisma.
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A lot of the examples given for witchwarper characters in the book fall under the "traumatic event awakens mysterious powers" trope which has generally been associated with charisma in Pathfinder.
I don't disagree with the vibes but I'm not sure Charisma necessarily makes sense for any of those things? Like impulsivity is stat neutral (maybe negatively correlated with wisdom a bit) and without trying to overly generalize neither neurodivergence nor trauma are typically associated with making you very good at talking to people, which is quintessentially what Charisma is.
Like those all seem like decent arguments to keep it Int to me, rather than the other way around.
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“I use quantum mechanics and the multiverse to operate my magic.”
“Oh, so you’re a big brained physicist?”
“No, the most successful used car salesman in the county.”
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The weak must be purged. The PF1 to PF2 Paladin rebels were similarly unmourned.
PF2E champion is a more coherent design. My thing is that I liked the technomancer thematically as a magical hardware and software engineer and not as some kind of technoshaman. Just completely different classes at that point. Champion and paladin are still thematically the same. You can port a character over from system to system there. You couldn't with as big of a thematic leap as you're proposing
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“I use quantum mechanics and the multiverse to operate my magic.”
“Oh, so you’re a big brained physicist?”
“No, the most successful used car salesman in the county.”
Please bear in mind that I'm not asking for Witchwarper to be _exclusively_ Charisma, but rather that it should be possible for it to manifest in that way. I do like INTwarper, a lot actually, but I think it'd be a shame not to have some way to express a warper who acts upon instinct, vibes, "what just feels right".
I guess it would be possible down the line to do a regular CHA class and archetype into warper, but would really like to see the class chassis natively support it.
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I'm championing for semi-CHA Witchwarper in part because I think it fits with the vision of Witchwarper outlined in Captain Concierge's sidebar--about how the class has shades of neurodivergence in it. Being neurodivergent myself, I think it'd be cool to see more aspects of spontaneity or impulsivity in their magic.
Fellow neurodivergent here! I've personally always thought of intelligence as the autism stat. I know a little bit about everything and know a lot of things about a few subjects. That's intelligence, isn't it? Knowing things and reasoning. You of course might have a different view on it, or a different experience with neurodivergence in general, I just wanted to chime in with my thoughts. As for more broadly whether I think WW should be an int or cha caster I don't have a strong opinion, though I do understand why Paizo chose int, and agree that it wouldn't hurt if they had some way to get charisma back for old times' sake. Maybe a Psychic situation.
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Fellow neurodivergent here! I've personally always thought of intelligence as the autism stat. I know a little bit about everything and know a lot of things about a few subjects. That's intelligence, isn't it? Knowing things and reasoning. You of course might have a different view on it, or a different experience with neurodivergence in general, I just wanted to chime in with my thoughts. As for more broadly whether I think WW should be an int or cha caster I don't have a strong opinion, though I do understand why Paizo chose int, and agree that it wouldn't hurt if they had some way to get charisma back for old times' sake. Maybe a Psychic situation.
I get it, haha. I really do like how they explicitly call out that neurodivergence shows up in different ways for different people, after all.
In part, my argument for adding CHA is less "what the stat maps to for humans in every day life" and more "what convention on d20 fantasy describes". Charisma isn't the "used car salesman stat" alone; it's also the stat associated with magical innate talent, as in the Sorc (and I'm sure a lot of ND people can relate bitterly to being called "innately talented, lol"). Similarly, considering how it was the old Use Magic Device attribute and is currently the KAS for Thaum, it's associated strongly with "making things work in unexpected ways". I really strongly relate to that--understanding things in lateral connections.
Again, I know this isn't really a powerful argument; it's really mostly just vibes. But it feels right!
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without trying to overly generalize neither neurodivergence nor trauma are typically associated with making you very good at talking to people
It very well can be and frequently is the case irl. Neurodivergence isn't just autism which has a social criteria for clinical diagnosis, whoch is easy to interpret sort of one dimensionally as low CHA. Neurodivergence is quite a number of things including ADHD. Lot of people with ADHD are kings of riz. Being a "social butterfly" to compensate for trauma is also common
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A lot of the Witchwarper backgrounds are "you're from another reality" or "you're from another timeline". Intelligence makes plenty of sense for somebody who intentionally went out and got their powers, but it's weird that only scientists and hackers are getting dropped here. I realize that, in theory, "only charismatic people end up in another reality", but having both Witchwarper and Precog helped with that, and at least for me, it's easier to justify "you're interesting to people because you're from another reality" than "finding yourself in another reality, you learned more about it than that locals".
Having both for flavor choice does a better job of replacing Witchwarper and Precog. A little extra flexibility to accommodate covering two former classes.
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“Only smart people are able to master the time stream/quantum foam by understanding the underlying physics theory of what they touch.”
If some freak cosmic accident gave you sword hands I wouldn’t expect you to be able to charisma them into someone’s kidneys - the strong or dexterous would be able to learn to use their “gift,” the rest just can’t scratch their nose safely.