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I'm making this post part to gather community opinions and part to kind of lay to rest this bugbear i've been having with Pathfinder's leveling progression. One that is more readily apparent with classes like the fighter (and the ranger) but i'm sure other classes have this issue too.
My trouble lies with how saving throw and perception progression with this class (and with other classes work), the general...dissatisfaction I can't help but feel with their late game features, and I suppose a lack of understanding why it is a certain way.
Before the comments about casters having bad saves and perception and how this is fighter whining, yes, I know, i'm not sure if it's right but they have that all game long, they have middling saves and perception at low AND high levels. Fighter is a martial, THE martial baseline in fact as far as design goes ironically, For comparison:
A Level 1-7 fighter has competitive saving throws with other martials, very good perception and a myriad of presses, interesting feats that mix up how you play alongside their vaunted +2 to accuracy. Overall, a strong class, I agree, but...this is the fighter, your out of combat utility while not worthless is limited, your mobility isn't the best, and you have relatively little team support you can provide outside of wise use of combat feats, your main role is damage and to be a stout brawler, I can respect that of course.
But now look at a level 13 fighter... Your perception is now behind the good perception classes like ranger and rogue, not a big deal, but...it was on par before and I can certainly justify the veteran fighter having high perception (??), your saves are generally worse than the average martial, Bulwark does not, in fact scale so now is falling behind dedicated Dexterity characters, your will saves are an increasingly relevant weakness, more and more monsters fly or have otherwise strong counters to the classic run up and swing melee option, or in polearm fighter's case, have better range than a polearm and thus aren't nearly as affected by your reach and AOO. A lot of these things apply to champion, to whom it's not the feat selection or anything, but once more, bulwark doesn't scale, they pay for their amazing armor in delayed progression elsewhere, their reaction gets harder and harder to use due to monster sizes, but hey, at least their level 19 feat seems awesome.
I'm not saying that high level fighter is weak, I think that +2 to accuracy carries them well and i'm pretty sure they get a spike in damage at 13 due to it. They're still one of the game's best damage dealers. It's just that I can't help but feel (and it's been voiced to me by a player who was playing a fighter), that the fighter character feels like he is inversely getting relatively weaker as he levels compared to not just other pcs but the competition. Rather than feeling like a more and more skilled warrior.
It doesn't help that taking a look at high level fighter feats, they're not exactly stinkers but...they seem so boring, no presses or flourishes (if rarely) for many builds, limited options (overwhelming blow seems like a trap, savage critical seems almost useless, because what the heck are you not critting with a 19 anyway???, this is strictly a go fish with your MAP attack feat). Other martials have high level feats that while not necessarily stronger feel so much more interesting to play with and speak to that class's identity, the fighter feels like he peaks in fighting technique at level 10 where feats like improved slam down, agile grace, etc exist.
Ranger also seems to fall behind his lower level self, admittedly I think it's worse for ranger but this has already been said (but this is digressing from the point, but it has a lot of different reasons others have covered). I guess I just really want to figure out why it's ok for classes like the fighter and champion to have their +2 to ac or attack and their other very competitive attributes to other martials for 1/2 of the game but then pay for it in many other parts of their chassis in the later half of the level progression, what has changed? Why is it ok at 1-7? but taxed at the other parts? I'm starting to build a personal theory that part of the reason fighter is seen as so OP is that most folk play at the early levels like in most TTRPGS. The rogue in particular gets better, and better, and better, as the game goes, with awesome almost anime level feats at every level past 10, the skill feat disparity getting wider, getting some of the game's best legendary skill feats (legendary sneak is crazy good vs something a STR based character would get like Cloud Jump), amazing class features (debilitations, master strike).
As the higher levels approach, the future looks rather bleak for my fighter player (who has nothing to be excited about and I can't exactly give him something looking at the facts) and my ranger player laments not playing a rogue invested into survival (and I...really can't give him very strong reasons why his ranger choice had advantages other than...a d10 hit die). The fighter level 19 feature is almost a joke due to runes, and even in abp it's of dubious use due to most of your feats being heavily invested into a single weapon type anyway, it's literal bragging rights. I offered it to a player as a level 6 feat, and they still didn't take it. They say comparison is the thief of joy, but it really does feel like other martials at least get more fun toys at the higher levels and you're stuck paying for your (admittedly incredible) level 1-10 crimes. Well, in rangers case they just feel mid all game long and never broken in anything (like Fighter, Champion, or Rogue) (unless they go into companions) all game long and then seemingly get worse...but yeah.
I guess the bottom line is, to other people that have played in the high levels, it really doesn't feel like fighter becomes a legendary warrior, until perhaps 20 and even then, there are absurdly broken capstones on other classes. You don't get any new presses or techniques that are notable, your saves become worse, your weaknesses more pronounced, and your strengths don't seem to get Stronger, you've got the same +2 to hit advantage you had at 1. For the same reason a champion or ranger, don't seem to feel like legendary knights and hunters (for different reasons, the champion feats are nice). In fact, the classes feel relatively worse because the competition has also grown. Having a weak-ish will save at levels 1-7 is an novelty, it is in fact not an novelty facing some of the in-cap will effects of higher level creatures, and potentially means getting left out of the fight at turn 1.
This wouldn't sting nearly as much if it was reversed ironically and fighter had a weaker early than late game showing, it's a class all about mastery after all, that's what makes this (seemingly) painfully ironic.
I apologize if this post came as rant-y or angry, I realize these things are often complex and design decisions have a ton of under-the cover reasoning. Once more this isn't meant to be a balance complaint, just trying to get some degree of closure.
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I don't have much to say on the subject but I would agree that fighter is only the best class at dealing single target damage specifically. P2e is a game about tactics as much as it is a game about dealing a lot of damage and other classes fill in enough jobs to be useful without having to compete with the fighter.
Barbarian and ranger would be the most comparable classes since they're also mostly focused on damage but they're different enough imo.
To add to the point about savage critical, yes it's for your attacks with map so it's good for dual wielding or unarmed builds with fob.
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I don't have much to say on the subject but I would agree that fighter is only the best class at dealing single target damage specifically. P2e is a game about tactics as much as it is a game about dealing a lot of damage and other classes fill in enough jobs to be useful without having to compete with the fighter.
Barbarian and ranger would be the most comparable classes since they're also mostly focused on damage but they're different enough imo.
To add to the point about savage critical, yes it's for your attacks with map so it's good for dual wielding or unarmed builds with fob.
Yeah, I get you, Of course i'd never say the fighter was bad at damage, they are excellent all game long. Arguably too good for how simple it is to hit the strike button lol, and I agree, I don't want a single character to do it all.
I'm specifically noting that (amongst other things) their save progression M/M/E
Is behind most martials including the other damage dealers Ranger's got L/M/E and so does Barbarian, Rogue straight up now has L/M/E with "evasion" in all, hopefully a mistake because that's crazy.
And this difference is actually somewhat important at the high levels due to the crit success features they lack. This alongside having a middling late game feat selection for non-dual wielders (who admittedly get cool feats) is just a feels bad moment.
I would understand having below average saves from the get go if it's what you're stuck paying for with your +2 to hit extra. But it's something that you get slapped with in the later levels for seemingly no return, you start with actually amazing saves, and then your level 19 feature is pretty middling, this and the frankly boring late game selection.
You feel (relatively) weaker as a higher level fighter (and ranger) than a low level one, and that's just stings a bit. That's been my table's experience at least. You're still the same damage dealer, you just now feel frailer, easily debuffable or removable, not to mention flying creatures, wall spells etc. I think high level fighter is perfectly playable btw, it just feels...less powerful, which is a shame, given you always want the opposite, and this would be ok, it's a bit natural except all the cool fantasy stuff was also given to other classes imo too.
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Fighter isn't just one of the top damage dealers, it is the top. Barbs can keep pace but sacrifice defense to get there. Fighter doesn't start pulling away in damage until level 10+. There's a lot of good mid to high level feats, blind fight, felling strike, quick shield block, agile grace, crushing slam, dazzling display, fearsome brute, tactical reflexes, dueling dance, lunging stance, paragons guard, whirlwind, graceful poise, master of many styles, multi shot stance and twinned defense. Depending on your fighting style or styles you need several of these. Fighters are chock full of high level ease of use feats. They don't have great flashy attacks, just ways to make their constant high damage easier.
I guess I can see level 16 and 18 not being very good for 2 handed fighters but other than that, the feat selection seems pretty good.
Since level 10 has at least 2 feats you want regardless of style, you start having to play catchup, and can easily run out of levels to do so.
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I guess I can see level 16 and 18 not being very good for 2 handed fighters but other than that, the feat selection seems pretty good.Since level 10 has at least 2 feats you want regardless of style, you start having to play catchup, and can easily run out of levels to do so.
I'd argue you can skip reflexes for ranged and dual wielding builds. What was the second feat though? Cut from the air?
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A Level 1-7 fighter has competitive saving throws with other martials, very good perception and a myriad of presses, interesting feats that mix up how you play alongside their vaunted +2 to accuracy. Overall, a strong class, I agree, but...this is the fighter, your out of combat utility while not worthless is limited, your mobility isn't the best, and you have relatively little team support you can provide outside of wise use of combat feats, your main role is damage and to be a stout brawler, I can respect that of course.
But... it doesn't have to be.
You get roughly the same number of skills as other classes. I usually pick one favorite mental stat for every martial character I make, so that I have enough out of combat things to do as well. You can pick Wisdom and be pretty good at Perception - Master still puts you ahead of most classes. Or Charisma and leverage Intimidation / Battle Cry, since you'll often be at the front of the party and often critting. I've also done Intelligence and combined it with a Wizard multiclass for more versatile options.
If the pure fighter feats don't seem that interesting to you, why not pick up an archetype then? You'll still have the best to hit that everyone is jealous of. But you can work on feats that let you do things that you find more interesting.
I'd argue you can skip reflexes for ranged and dual wielding builds. What was the second feat though? Cut from the air?
Personally I think fearsome brute is required if you want that top damage, +3/6/9 damage on every attack is too good to pass up.
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So I think there are two separate observations here.
One is fighter power, which I disagree with, high level fighters are amazing, they're always amazing.
But the second is pointing out that scaling in PF2 is really weird. There's a lot of internal inconsistency between different class features that mean a class' relative power can jump a lot from level to level. It's notable with save progression, but it's also probably most noticeable for Champions and Alchemists with their armor and weapon proficiency being sometimes unique and sometimes martial standard at seemingly arbitrary levels that have nothing to do with balance.
It's always, imo, been one of the more baffling bits of design in PF2.
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I put together some charts to compare proficiency growth.
Compare rogues worst save fort. they have to spend 8 levels at trained compared to fighter spending 2 at trained for will. Fighters get to master armor at 17 where rogues only get to expert at 13.
So even though fighter has by far the best weapon proficiency they still dont pay for it by being terrible elsewhere.
Number of Levels at each proficiency charts
Also the fact that fighter gets to be expert at level 1 for perception never made much sense to me, but they get it. They even get to master by level 7. So even though they are not a perception specialist they are actually very good at it and get to spend a lot of levels being good.
So I would say yes they are frontloaded in a few areas. But i wouldn't say they get worse as the level, instead I would say they get to spend more levels enjoying being stronger. Specialists pass them up in their respective areas but fighter gets to be better in their specialty at all levels which is weapon proficiency.
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You are basically picking out the less exciting things and ignoring the best things about fighter. Fighter saves are fine. Master in reflex and fortitude with evasion on both puts them ahead of all casters and some martials. Evasion on reflex is better than evasion on will. Perception is fine. I never make a character and say, it's broken because it's perception is master instead of legendary.
Fighter advances armor proficiency faster than most martials (11 and 17, instead of 13 and 19).
I think agile grace is one of the best feats in the game. Having a -3 MAP is amazing. My fighter uses unarmed with flurry of blows and can do up to 5 attacks per round at 0/-3/-6/-6/-6. Using unarmed lets you easily use a shield which has amazing fighter feats like Paragon's Guard, Quick Shield Block, Reflexive Shield, and Reactive Shield.
Fighter has other feat chains that enable builds other classes can't do.
I am not making the frankly silly claim that fighter is a weak martial, only that it seems to get paradoxically, worse rather than better as the game goes, relatively speaking, You bring up a good point which is the advanced armor proficiencies. And I know my post was quite long but I did bring up the fact that the feat selection for dual wielders is really good, just really middling for other builds (perhaps with shield users having some standouts).
More accurately, i'm just trying to say that it is regrettable for me that there are basically no press, or flourish feats, at the higher levels, you're stuck as the comments above highlight, fetching archetypes and getting lower level feats you missed. This may be in the end fine, but i'm just afraid to say that I wish there were at least more high level flavorful things that made you feel like you mastered a fighting style.
No fighter saves are not objectively bad, I know, they are just below average for a martial, but this doesn't appear until the later levels.
At these levels you see some really fun and fantastic feats for other martials, some of which while not totally superior certainly feel flavorful and interesting, but take a two handed build and you have for level 16 and 18 in particular...Overwhelming blow and Savage critical.
I want to clarify again, that this isn't a "fighter is weak" complaint, I roughly understand where fighter is meant to be strong or weak, they are I admit a solidly strong class overall, it's just that they seem to taper off in the game's later half, at least from all i've seen.
And yes, I know archetypes exist, and this is certainly A solution but correct me if I am wrong but aren't a class's pure feats generally superior to archetype feats, especially at a higher level?
I just think that all evidence seems to point that fighter at 1-7 is for all intents and purposes at the top of the charts or tied to the top in many ways, and then gets eclipsed quickly.
Saves that match other martials if not are outright better than most, top of the line perception, Bulwark basically can't be beat by dex, excellent feat lines and builds ( I agree).
And then you cross into the late game and your saves start to fall behind, bulwark is increasingly less impressive, your perception falls behind too (which is I reiterate fine just notable), your feats imo get worse, making you often take lower level feats and more saliently they are less interesting too, which I know is subjective and understand that but I rather enjoyed the interesting presses and flourishes which seem all but gone, and your ultimate level 19 feature is basically bragging rights.
Is a high level fighter objectively a bad character? I...I don't actually know, I don't think so at all, it's still a massive damage dealer that's for sure.
Does this make the fighter seem frontloaded to me? That's what grinds my gears a bit.
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So I think there are two separate observations here.
One is fighter power, which I disagree with, high level fighters are amazing, they're always amazing.
But the second is pointing out that scaling in PF2 is really weird. There's a lot of internal inconsistency between different class features that mean a class' relative power can jump a lot from level to level. It's notable with save progression, but it's also probably most noticeable for Champions and Alchemists with their armor and weapon proficiency being sometimes unique and sometimes martial standard at seemingly arbitrary levels that have nothing to do with balance.
It's always, imo, been one of the more baffling bits of design in PF2.
This comment, particularly the second half gets a lot of it, thank you Squiggit, as to your first point I agree, fighters are good characters almost all game long.
The second point is what's strange, leading to honestly the more ranty effect that I ended up voicing here, but if the mistake is on the other end and paizo frontloaded the fighter chassis for whatever reason, that's also acceptable, it's just unclear to me what the balancing point is.
Is the fighter's +2 to hit meant to give them worse saves? Debatably, probably in paizo's eyes for sure given the champion suffers for having an admittedly incosistent +2 to AC. Does this happen seemingly randomnly? yes, and manifests itself at the high levels.
Of course this is what led a player to just voice to me the strange feeling that they were in-fact, getting worse.
I'm of the opinion that fighter starts with a borderline broken set of chassis elements, the fact that these are tuned down as the levels go may be fair...but I guess it doesn't feel good.
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So I think there are two separate observations here.
One is fighter power, which I disagree with, high level fighters are amazing, they're always amazing.
But the second is pointing out that scaling in PF2 is really weird. There's a lot of internal inconsistency between different class features that mean a class' relative power can jump a lot from level to level. It's notable with save progression, but it's also probably most noticeable for Champions and Alchemists with their armor and weapon proficiency being sometimes unique and sometimes martial standard at seemingly arbitrary levels that have nothing to do with balance.
It's always, imo, been one of the more baffling bits of design in PF2.
I have no clue why they designed it this way but I mostly like the effect it mostly has.
If you compare builds at different levels then it is pretty much the case (yeah, there are exceptions) that
1) at any level the differences between two well designed characters is fairly small and both will be contributing to group success
2) to the extent the comparison makes any sense, the relative ordering of different characters will vary from level to level. Ie, A will be better than B sometimes, B better than A sometimes, and basically on par sometimes
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A Level 1-7 fighter has competitive saving throws with other martials, very good perception and a myriad of presses, interesting feats that mix up how you play alongside their vaunted +2 to accuracy. Overall, a strong class, I agree, but...this is the fighter, your out of combat utility while not worthless is limited, your mobility isn't the best, and you have relatively little team support you can provide outside of wise use of combat feats, your main role is damage and to be a stout brawler, I can respect that of course.But... it doesn't have to be.
You get roughly the same number of skills as other classes. I usually pick one favorite mental stat for every martial character I make, so that I have enough out of combat things to do as well. You can pick Wisdom and be pretty good at Perception - Master still puts you ahead of most classes. Or Charisma and leverage Intimidation / Battle Cry, since you'll often be at the front of the party and often critting. I've also done Intelligence and combined it with a Wizard multiclass for more versatile options.
If the pure fighter feats don't seem that interesting to you, why not pick up an archetype then? You'll still have the best to hit that everyone is jealous of. But you can work on feats that let you do things that you find more interesting.
I say the fighter has generally below average combat utility because it's gets the same skill feats as everyone else but none of it's class features really help you in exploration, you don't have a hunt prey, or esoteric lore, you dont have spellcasting to fall back on to resolve problems, or additional skills like a rogue, inventor. That is fine, but I do think one has to be honest and say that combat is where the fighter is meant to excel (and it does), alongside the barbarian (who's in the same boat roughly). You just have a solid combat chassis.
as for team support, yes i'm aware you can invest into mental stats like intimidation of course, and can certainly assist your team, I just don't think that fighter has an inherent chassis that is best suited for support, this is no bard, and this goes at the expense of your saves, or the ability to use dexterity weapons, everything has a price which is fine of ocurse.
To be clear i'm not saying fighter is not interesting to me, i'm saying I wish we had more thematic high level features because the fighter feat list after 10 but definitely after 14...doesn't make me feel like i've progressed a lot with a lack of interesting presses or techniques in the later feats, Dual wielders get some of course, but if you look at other martial feat lists you have dragon barbarians turning into dragons, rogues dispelling magic with attacks, and imitating spells, turning into complete blank slates etc.
This can easily be construed as cherry picking, but is why I would strongly argue that all of fighter's best feats are level 10 and below and only finally great again at the capstones Without failure. Slamdown and improved slam down, combat reflexes, agile grace, double slice, snagging strike, the brutish shove line with polearms, you get your stances at 12 I suppose for shield and dueling sword (which is awesome). I wish I could tell you if this was the case for every class, it doesn't look the case for many classes. but yeah.
I think your focusing on individual things instead of the whole. Fighter is the best damage dealer at high levels. Barb can keep pace but has lower AC (where most damage comes from), Starlight span magus can reach similar so long as they can spend the entire turn otherwise nose dive. The other classes are way behind in damage most of the time. I mean WAY behind.
Your saves are good, easy to get 33 Fort and Will, 31Ref with auto crit bump to both physical saves. 31Perc with no item for it. Fighter is a strong early class but blows up after 10, gets stronger at a higher rate then nearly all other classes, while still having great AC and Saves.
Top 3 in damage, almost always first or second.
Top 3 in AC while the other high AC classes struggle with dealing damage.
Good saves, able to get master in three with two auto crit bumps.
Normal martial, AKA good, perception.
Fighter gets their attack routine at low levels, high level stuff is mostly action economy and number fixes. You can say they aren't flashy, but they are the best mix of extreme offense and high defense.
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I think your focusing on individual things instead of the whole. Fighter is the best damage dealer at high levels. Barb can keep pace but has lower AC (where most damage comes from), Starlight span magus can reach similar so long as they can spend the entire turn otherwise nose dive. The other classes are way behind in damage most of the time. I mean WAY behind.
Your saves are good, easy to get 33 Fort and Will, 31Ref with auto crit bump to both physical saves. 31Perc with no item for it. Fighter is a strong early class but blows up after 10, gets stronger at a higher rate then nearly all other classes, while still having great AC and Saves.
Top 3 in damage, almost always first or second.
Top 3 in AC while the other high AC classes struggle with dealing damage.
Good saves, able to get master in three with two auto crit bumps.
Normal martial, AKA good, perception.Fighter gets their attack routine at low levels, high level stuff is mostly action economy and number fixes. You can say they aren't flashy, but they are the best mix of extreme offense and high defense.
I'm confused as to what you are talking about. From level 7 fighters effectively have legendary perception for initiative, reflex and fortitude get auto crits at master while will gets it for fear effects and reduces frightened by 1. And as a fighter you can easily keep your wis as a sec stat. Now if you don't find anything exciting about the feat choices at those levels I can get that. But the defenses built into the base chassis are good
I'm gonna say it again, because I feel like i'm being misconstrued, not intentionally mind you, I suppose it can't be helped, it was a stupid long post (lol).
Fighters are Strong, I believe fighters are strong, not weak.
I just believe fighters are STRONGER (relative term) in the early compared to the late game. That's what this post is about. As in, fighter seem frontloaded. A fighter at levels 1-7 will seem far more powerful than one at 13-20, I honestly believe they will both be useful characters, especially since both will hit like a truck and hit often. I wished to ask folks here if I was wrong, I am not 100% convinced a lot of this is based on a logical take, and some degree of play, I don't mean this to come off as a rant or once more, a balance complaint, merely perhaps an explanation.
I also want to re-iterate the other considerations that knock the class down a peg in the later game. Such as the higher abundance of flying monsters, the seemingly more higher prevalence of will saves, wall effects, and other disruptive elements that make melee characters less good (yes this isn't unique to fighter), the Bulwark trait never scaling (i'm not arguing it should).
and of course the separate topic that I wish more presses and flourishes existed in the higher levels. They don't even have to be strong, just interesting, and that particularly I suppose to clarify polearm fighters, less so shield fighters. Have a very underwhelming feat selection, this is subjective of course, but not entirely, I don't think the best feats for fighter are anywhere past 12, certainly not 14. Other than capstones.
Is this enough to turn one of the hardest hitting classes in the game with decent survivability into a bad class?, not at all, I know, their saves aren't bad either, they're just relatively worse (again) than they were at the early levels.
I just think that if you limited the game to the levels 1-7 Fighter could be argued to be one of the strongest classes in the game, for sure at least I could hardly see a contender, top 2.
If you limit it to 11-20 a lot of other contenders enter which shows a relative softening of the class's power, it's now a more or less top 5 or 7 class, is this a "lame" problem to have? I suppose, I think that if I were to tweak the game far more classes would be in the queue before fighter. All that being said
I would rather fighter be Moderate to ok strong early and never really change this way, so take it as you will.
Casters start to be king in the later levels.
Fighter is the best single target martial damage dealer. They hit things. They do this at level 1. They do this at level 20. They are almost the same at level 1 as they are at level 20. They are one of the least versatile martials and simplest to play in the game. They do what they do very well. I usually prefer control fighters over straight strikers as I think building off Reactive Strike is the best way to build a fighter.
I don't think fighters get worst past level 10. I think other classes get way better with much more interesting lines of advancement.
Fighter keeps their claim to fame of being the top single target damage dealer. They are boring as hell to me.
Fighters and martials are not even close to the top damage dealer in the game. Casters are by a wide margin. I've done 100s to a 1000 plus damage in a round as a caster. Your nukes get nutty. You can do all types of things martials couldn't do on their best day.
I've played a druid with a giant barbarian in the group and the druid was nearly equal for single target damage to the giant barbarian and much, much higher on multitarget damage and general usefulness.
When we reached level 20 in an AP, the sorcerer was destroying enemies and fights. The martials were still just doing damage with a few effects here and there. AoE Slow, walls, synesthesia, big blast spells, banishment, and a very high DC at level and the sorcerer is outclassing the martials by a good amount.
A lot of players are highly satisfied with doing damage. They like the consistent linear advancement of a martial doing that consistent, high single target damage.
PF2 like PF1 hasn't changed insofar as the casters are still king at high level. Level 10 is about where it starts. The fighter is probably the most boring martial in the game with the most boring advancement. I would argue the most interesting martial in the game is the rogue with the most interesting builds. Every other martial falls somewhere in the spectrum between the simple but effective fighter and the complex highly effective rogue.
Even so none of the martial abilities are touching a caster that just blasted a room with a Eclipse Burst for hundreds of points of damage or more depending on the number of mooks permanently blinding a few. Or just hit the boss mob with synesthesia and true target for a death round of damage.
I've played a few fighters. That class gets way too boring past the low levels. I have to multiclass into a caster or champion or something. The fighter playstyle is hitting the strike button over and over again. Maybe a strike might be slightly different than another strike, but it's just a strike over and over again. You're the guy who hits things and not much else. That is going to get real old for 20 levels.
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I think that part of the issue is that fighters start out strong and they more or less stay that way. Whereas other classes start out less strong but feature more dramatic boosts over time (including other martials, like the Giant Barbarian improves quite a bit once they get more reach and Reactive Strike).
Where the fighter is always going to be useful though is that they are the kings of "actually hitting the boss monster" which is never going to be not useful.
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Casters start to be king in the later levels.
Fighter is the best single target martial damage dealer. They hit things. They do this at level 1. They do this at level 20. They are almost the same at level 1 as they are at level 20. They are one of the least versatile martials and simplest to play in the game. They do what they do very well. I usually prefer control fighters over straight strikers as I think building off Reactive Strike is the best way to build a fighter.
I don't think fighters get worst past level 10. I think other classes get way better with much more interesting lines of advancement.
Fighter keeps their claim to fame of being the top single target damage dealer. They are boring as hell to me.
Fighters and martials are not even close to the top damage dealer in the game. Casters are by a wide margin. I've done 100s to a 1000 plus damage in a round as a caster. Your nukes get nutty. You can do all types of things martials couldn't do on their best day.
I've played a druid with a giant barbarian in the group and the druid was nearly equal for single target damage to the giant barbarian and much, much higher on multitarget damage and general usefulness.
When we reached level 20 in an AP, the sorcerer was destroying enemies and fights. The martials were still just doing damage with a few effects here and there. AoE Slow, walls, synesthesia, big blast spells, banishment, and a very high DC at level and the sorcerer is outclassing the martials by a good amount.
A lot of players are highly satisfied with doing damage. They like the consistent linear advancement of a martial doing that consistent, high single target damage.
PF2 like PF1 hasn't changed insofar as the casters are still king at high level. Level 10 is about where it starts. The fighter is probably the most boring martial in the game with the most boring advancement. I would argue the most interesting martial in the game is the rogue with the most interesting builds. Every other martial falls somewhere in the...
Actually Deriven, i'd love to get your input on this because I saw some of your posts in the remaster rogue thread, I was interested in it and this is beside the main post which is about the fighter but. Have you had experience with late game rogues? Because so far they seem to be my contender for the best martial in the game overall. At the very least they seem to scale incredibly into the late game, I just haven't seen many remaster rogues in play.
Early they don't seem so crazy, but their feats seem incredible all game long (no dead levels) to the point where you don't want to archetype, they get precise debilitations at 9 which is stellar, legendary perception growth, for thief rogue with backstab the damage is nothing to scoff at at all, approaching barbarian levels, they get a skill feat per level, their level 19 feature looks amazing and least of all, legendary skill feats (some) are almost better than class feats, look at legendary sneak vs the ranger's level 12 camouflage, and the rogue simply gets more.
and now with the remaster their saves are arguably top 1 (if they're meant to be like this).
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I think that part of the issue is that fighters start out strong and they more or less stay that way. Whereas other classes start out less strong but feature more dramatic boosts over time (including other martials, like the Giant Barbarian improves quite a bit once they get more reach and Reactive Strike).
Where the fighter is always going to be useful though is that they are the kings of "actually hitting the boss monster" which is never going to be not useful.
Yeah pretty much.
They don't get Reactive Strike at 6 like other martials - because they got it at level 1. But the feats they do get are still very strong, and it's fairly straightforward to build a good fighter because they just have high pluses.
I can agree with this, sadly, while I understand the need for an easy to play class etc, and this is entirely subjective so i'm not saying paizo should do it, I would have rather fighter improve and start moderate to weak.
It feels more in line with the idea of the class (weapon master) to start like a low level mercenary/ warrior and climb up.
Also I apologize if there's been a misconception, I consider balance to be mostly relative, perhaps i'm wrong, something is only as good as the alternative option is generally in games like these, it's the only other metric you can mention otherwise you should be doing system changes, at least to me. Which is why I say the fighter gets "worse", it gets relatively less good.
I don't consider say, investigator that bad on it's own merit, if put in a different ttrpg system it may be a stellar class, I consider it kinda subpar because rogue or thaumaturge exist.
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The fighter is incredibly strong at level 1, getting reactive strike, +2 to hit, Heavy armour. The difference at high level is even larger in terms of saving throws and defences. There are multiple good feats at every level. They even get 2 extra feats than everyone else. Maybe level 18 might be less spectacular than other levels. But 10 through 16 are very strong.
If anything the problem is many other classes are weak at level 1 and need to be level 6 before they get their main schtick together.
But in the end the fighter wins on numbers. If that feels bland after a while to you, then take another class.
another thing easy to overlook is that being so accurate means that part of a fighter's magic at higher levels comes from consistently criting with ever more powerful runes that do better things with crits the higher of level they get. Adding too much more to that with feats could have gotten out of hand quickly
As far as fighter feats, I am assuming you are looking at 2 hander weapon feats and we are ignoring AP feats, as otherwise feats like Weapon Supremacy, Sever Space, and Impossible Volley are all amazing high level feats.
The issue you are running into is that 2 handed weapon fighters are already at the extreme limit of single target damage capacity, especially with the accuracy of a fighter.
Even so, building into it can make feats like Boundless Reprisals, Whirlwind Strike can be excellent damage options, but I think there are better options for you if you are feeling let down by your fighter's saves. Determination is probably a feat you should really be looking into, and if you don't completely tank Dex, like start with a +1 or 2 and keep boosting it to end with a 4 or even a 5, Lightning swap can let you be all of the kinds of fighters at once, as is best determined by the situation and can pair it really easily with Ultimate flexibility. Greater Doubling Rings are dirt cheap and weapons with the 2-handed trait give you a ton of flexibility for what you can do, and even a slightly under-runed bow is pretty devastating when paired with some of the feats you can pick up with an hour's notice.
...Casters start to be king in the later levels.
Fighter is the best single target martial damage dealer. They hit things. They do this at level 1. They do this at level 20. They are almost the same at level 1 as they are at level 20. They are one of the least versatile martials and simplest to play in the game. They do what they do very well. I usually prefer control fighters over straight strikers as I think building off Reactive Strike is the best way to build a fighter.
I don't think fighters get worst past level 10. I think other classes get way better with much more interesting lines of advancement.
Fighter keeps their claim to fame of being the top single target damage dealer. They are boring as hell to me.
Fighters and martials are not even close to the top damage dealer in the game. Casters are by a wide margin. I've done 100s to a 1000 plus damage in a round as a caster. Your nukes get nutty. You can do all types of things martials couldn't do on their best day.
I've played a druid with a giant barbarian in the group and the druid was nearly equal for single target damage to the giant barbarian and much, much higher on multitarget damage and general usefulness.
When we reached level 20 in an AP, the sorcerer was destroying enemies and fights. The martials were still just doing damage with a few effects here and there. AoE Slow, walls, synesthesia, big blast spells, banishment, and a very high DC at level and the sorcerer is outclassing the martials by a good amount.
A lot of players are highly satisfied with doing damage. They like the consistent linear advancement of a martial doing that consistent, high single target damage.
PF2 like PF1 hasn't changed insofar as the casters are still king at high level. Level 10 is about where it starts. The fighter is probably the most boring martial in the game with the most boring advancement. I would argue the most interesting martial in the game is the rogue with the most interesting builds. Every
I have played a thief rogue to level 20. They are absolutely awesome.
Six legendary skills.
I built up deception to legendary, stealth to legendary with most of the best stealth feats then picked up Blank Slate and I was nearly untouchable with a fourth level invisibility. Blank Slate makes you immune to detection, revelation, and basically most means of detecting invisibility. 4th level invis is super easy to come by at that level on top of Legendary Sneak allowing you to sneak at will.
Precise Debilitations allows you to flat foot a target you can sneak attack and just keep them endlessly flat-footed to everyone. Then when you get Double Debilitations, you can flat-foot them and boost your sneak attack damage to 6d6.
Mobility for half move no reaction abilities for movement against you.
Opportune Backstab, the best reaction strike in the game. I even pick this up on some of my martials since it is only level 8.
Legendary Perception, Legendary Reflex, and Master Will saves making it so you can use the General feat that boosts saves to boost your fortitude save to Master. Now they seem to have given the rogue critical success on success for Fortitude saves now with a Fort save you can boost to master.
Able to focus stats on Dex, Con, and Wisdom. Then build up charisma or strength depending on whether you want better Athletics or better social skills. This sets you up for the ability to MC easily if playing with Free Archetype or wanting to grab some archetype.
Level 20 feats are nice. Hidden Paragon to disappear once per fight. Impossible Striker to get your sneak attack all the time. Enduring Debilitation to flat-foot a bunch of different targets.
Master Strike to straight up kill mooks.
Gang Up for easy flanking.
This all the great stuff off the top of my head. I don't know who loves the Rogue at Paizo, but the rogue is probably the best martial in the game. Really, one of the best classes in the game.
One of the big problems with fighter feats is most of them are boring and won't ever get used. I see the idea behind the fighter was to use different strikes to do different things.
The best way to build a fighter is make them a trip fighter with knockdown. Take the boosted reactive strike. Knock stuff down, hit it when they get up. This does the most damage.
Fighters are generally slow too compared to more mobile classes as heavy armor slows you down. You can overcome this a bit by taking Adopted Ancestry dwarf and then Unburdened Iron. Obviously, it gets real cheesy if you do this over and over again. You should have some RP reason for it, but not hard to come up with one.
I personally like to build my fighter charisma up some and take Champion Paladin MC for expanded reaction strikes. Then I knock something down, hit it when it stands up. Then hit something when they attack an ally. You can also take Rogue Archetype which is easy since you will likely build up Dex anyway, they grab opportune backstab at level 16 which when combined with Knockdown means you hit the target when they stand up and when your ally hits it.
Big 2h weapons are better on the fighter than other options as they do the most damage with Reactive Strike and reaction based attacks which the fighter specializes in.
Out of combat, the fighter is pretty poor. I do like to take stealth on the fighter and usually do Athletics, Acrobatics at least to Master, and Stealth while focusing stat boosts on Str, Dex, Con, and Wis to at least be a decent stealthy fighter.
If I'm human, I may pick up a casting archetype at level 9 using Multi-talented and grab enough casting for See the Unseen with a shield cantrip for a little AC boost on occasion with a two-handed weapon.
One of the big problems with fighter feats is most of them are boring and won't ever get used.This is such a strange claim to make.
Every fighter I have seen played used every feat they took as often as they could, and picked their feats by looking at what they could make use of. The only struggle I've seen is with the floating bonus feats that can be selected during daily preparations and even then it was a player that was deliberately refusing to have anything other than their primary plan of action.
It is very easy, when trying to engage with the system, to find meaningful ways to do so.
Of course the "are boring" part of the statement is inarguable; not that I agree with it, just that I can't convince someone not to be bored by something that bores them no matter how much it entertains me. The "wow factor" is something that Fighter struggles with for sure since it's flavor is that of a weapon master but then because the game expects everyone in a party to participate meaningfully in combat encounters every other class that uses a weapon feels kind of like they too are a weapon master but then also gets some other dose of flavor from their actual flavor leaving the fighter looking underseasoned by comparison.
More overselling when I can't see your game.
What feats were they using all the time? Let's hear your examples rather than continue these nebulous arguments you make with no examples.
Let's see. What feats did I use as a fighter?
Level 1. Sudden Charge. Big opening feat.
Level 2: Vicious strike at low level.
Knockdown at level 4.
Level 6 I think was Furious Focus to make Vicious strike more efficient until I retrained out of both of these when I picked up a greater striking rune and it became less efficient to use Vicious strike. I usually retrained these into multiclass feats.
Level 8. This was more of an open feat. I may fill it with Blind Fight until I pick up Blind fight with Combat Flexibility.
Level 10: Tactical Reflexes
Level 12: Crash Down
Level 14 and up is when the feats get so so and I focus on archetypes and retraining out of Vicious Strike as it is mostly useless at these levels with a Greater Striking Rune providing more bang for the buck with an extra hit. You're focusing on Slam Down as your primary opening mode of attack.
Level 20 you can take more Reactive Strikes, but two is usually enough in a round. So the extra strike is usually better.
That's how I build the fighter. I don't build any other type of fighters because other classes are better at other fighting styles. Ranger is more fun as a two-weapon fighter. Monk is more fun with unarmed combat. Champion is better with the shield. Fighter and barb the best at two-handed weapons. Rogue best with finesse or agile weapons.
So enlighten the OP to the greatness of the fighter. Debating me on fighters is pointless. They aren't fun to me. They have one or two good builds. I like other classes that have more bang for the buck when I want to do anything other than hit stuff with a big weapon.
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Debating me on fighters is pointless. They aren't fun to me. They have one or two good builds.
I'll keep it brief then.
Here are the outlines of 10 Fighter Builds I prepared 2 years ago. All of them are viable and moderately powerful. If you are happy playing in the one room that is fine. It is not going to stop the rest of us from enjoying the whole house.
Debating me on fighters is pointless. They aren't fun to me. They have one or two good builds.I'll keep it brief then.
Here are the outlines of 10 Fighter Builds I prepared 2 years ago. All of them are viable and moderately powerful. If you are happy playing in the one room that is fine. It is not going to stop the rest of us from enjoying the whole house.
Glad to see you and The Noble Drake provide your builds.
I'm not looking for viable. I am looking for high performance.
If the OP likes one of the builds you provide better and finds it fun to play, then good for him.
My advice is always going to slant towards high performance based on experience in common play. That's what I like and that's the playstyle I encourage.
More overselling when I can't see your game.Right, because your vague declarations are truth and mine are inherently inferior even though no one can "see your game" either.
You argue from experience a lot. But this time, I'll bite. Here are the feats I have seen fighter characters (plural, not all on one character) use constantly:
Level 1: combat assessment, double slice, exacting strike, point blank stance, snagging strike, sudden charge, and vicious swing. All of those can form a foundation for "that's what type of fighter I am" and see a ton of usage.
Level 2: brutish shove, combat grab, dueling parry, and intimidating strike have already seen a lot of usage - and both lightning swap and rebounding toss have been talked up by players for how cool and useful they seem, but a player has yet to play a thrown-focused fighter and we haven't seen any new fighter characters since Player Core was released.
Level 4: double shot, dual-handed assault (you can build a whole character around using a one-hand + open hand style in combat, and this feat plays into it excellently if you have access to a katana or a dwarven waraxe), parting shot, quick reversal, slam down, swipe, twin parry.
Level 6: Advanced Weapon Training (see the waraxe build mentioned earlier), Advantageous Assault (pairs well with slam down), Furious Focus, Revealing Stab (one of my favorite feats in the whole game), richochet stance, shatter defenses, and triple shot - lots of upgrades and combos at this level.
Level 8: blind-fight, incredible aim, positioning assault, sudden leap, and resounding bravery gets an honorable mention because in the right campaign it is absolutely ridiculous how good it would be.
Level 10: things get thinner here as the games I've seen go to or past this level happen to have been ones that didn't involve fighter characters, but I will mention feats that were looked at or brought up as an "I'm planning to take that when I can".
Agile grace -absolutely ramped...
Most of these options would not outperform other builds I use with the fighter.
We don't see the game the same way. I want reliable high performance. Builds, spells, feats, weapons and so on that perform poorly or don't perform well I don't use. And I've tested a lot of builds and options discarding them for poor performance as well as measuring the performance of builds my players use when I run the game.
At this point most who don't want to play an optimal build in common play scenarios should ignore my posts. You all know where I'm coming from and I'm going to offer players optimal build options, not just viable.
I know PF2 is not a hard game so plenty of other builds are viable. I leave that to other posters to provide creative options for players they want to have some fun with that may not perform very well.
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It's you.
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But now look at a level 13 fighter... Your perception is now behind the good perception classes like ranger and rogue, not a big deal, but...it was on par before and I can certainly justify the veteran fighter having high perception (??)
Fighters get Master Perception at level 7 AND +2 to Initiative on top of that, baseline. The only classes better at Perception are the ones that go to Legendary, and those are still not better at Initiative without taking a feat.
In terms of Perception, Fighter is in the top half of classes. In terms of Initiative, it's in what, the top 4?
I feel like this is more a case of Fighter having it really good early on and just not having it quite as good later. My Oracle needs two feats and to be level 17 to match a level 7 Fighter baseline.
your saves are generally worse than the average martial
I'm not sure "two saves at master and two success becomes a crit success" saves is actually worse than the average martial, but that doesn't factor in Bravery making you resistant to a pretty common class of effects in Fear.
[quoote]Bulwark does not, in fact scale so now is falling behind dedicated Dexterity characters
Of course it does. Bulwark's point is that you don't have to invest in DEX at all. It's ALWAYS behind dedicated DEX characters. You're still getting the upside of not having to invest in DEX at all. If your Reflex save really matters to you and you want to make it bigger, you can invest in DEX.
your will saves are an increasingly relevant weakness
Most classes have at least one save at Expert because there should be something for foes to target (same as how creatures tend to have a bad save).
more and more monsters fly or have otherwise strong counters to the classic run up and swing melee option
At the level where this really becomes a problem, there are items to get yourself flight as well as things the Casters in the party can do to help. Or grab an Extending Rune and just swing from the ground. My son did this and it was really amusing when things thought they were safe.
I'm not saying that high level fighter is weak, I think that +2 to accuracy carries them well and i'm pretty sure they get a spike in damage at 13 due to it. They're still one of the game's best damage dealers. It's just that I can't help but feel (and it's been voiced to me by a player who was playing a fighter), that the fighter character feels like he is inversely getting relatively weaker as he levels compared to not just other pcs but the competition. Rather than feeling like a more and more skilled warrior.
It's possible Fighter is too front loaded and too strong early on, so it as it actually comes somewhere vaguely back in line it feels weaker when it's really not. But it's always strong. I've GM'd multiple Fighters all the way to 20 and they were ludicrous at high level, with one of them doing dual pick Agile Grace and dealing insane damage, while the other was 2h Power Attack critting for 14d12 while also using Scare to Death to remove enemies from the fight (if not just killing them outright).
It doesn't help that taking a look at high level fighter feats, they're not exactly stinkers but...they seem so boring, no presses or flourishes (if rarely) for many builds, limited options (overwhelming blow seems like a trap, savage critical seems almost useless, because what the heck are you not critting with a 19 anyway???, this is strictly a go fish with your MAP attack feat). Other martials have high level feats that while not necessarily stronger feel so much more interesting to play with and speak to that class's identity, the fighter feels like he peaks in fighting technique at level 10 where feats like improved slam down, agile grace, etc exist.
This is probably fair in that it gets less interesting as you level, though Disruptive Stance + Combat Reflexes basically ends any fight against a Caster that you can close in on. But if none of the feats here interest you, it might be a good time to archetype.
Ranger also seems to fall behind his lower level self, admittedly I think it's worse for ranger but this has already been said (but this is digressing from the point, but it has a lot of different reasons others have covered). I guess I just really want to figure out why it's ok for classes like the fighter and champion to have their +2 to ac or attack and their other very competitive attributes to other martials for 1/2 of the game but then pay for it in many other parts of their chassis in the later half of the level progression, what has changed? Why is it ok at 1-7? but taxed at the other parts? I'm starting to build a personal theory that part of the reason fighter is seen as so OP is that most folk play at the early levels like in most TTRPGS. The rogue in particular gets better, and better, and better, as the game goes, with awesome almost anime level feats at every level past 10, the skill feat disparity getting wider, getting some of the game's best legendary skill feats (legendary sneak is crazy good vs something a STR based character would get like Cloud Jump), amazing class features (debilitations, master strike).
Cloud Jump is great. Scare to Death is available to anyone and is arguably the strongest legendary feat in the game unless you need to be hidden all the time (in which case Legendary Sneak will come out on top).
I just don't think this is true from experience. Fighters don't really drop off. They're still extremely strong. We had one in a Night of the Grey Death game and they were the MVP.
As the higher levels approach, the future looks rather bleak for my fighter player (who has nothing to be excited about and I can't exactly give him something looking at the facts) and my ranger player laments not playing a rogue invested into survival (and I...really can't give him very strong reasons why his ranger choice had advantages other than...a d10 hit die). The fighter level 19 feature is almost a joke due to runes, and even in abp it's of dubious use due to most of your feats being heavily invested into a single weapon type anyway, it's literal bragging rights. I offered it to a player as a level 6 feat, and they still didn't take it. They say comparison is the thief of joy, but it really does feel like other martials at least get more fun toys at the higher levels and you're stuck paying for your (admittedly incredible) level 1-10 crimes. Well, in rangers case they just feel mid all game long and never broken in anything (like Fighter, Champion, or Rogue) (unless they go into companions) all game long and then seemingly get worse...but yeah.
Ranger is much more of a mid tier class, so if you're talking about Ranger I can see this more. Fighter is great and is always great. And again, if you don't find the high level feats interesting, archetype to pick up something else. You can even get more skills to Master (and more skill feats) via Rogue/Investigator dedications, go pick up the Champion Reaction and some healing, or get something else fun to play with.
That also addresses any idea that Fighters aren't good out of combat, which is wrong in the first place since they get the same skill options as nearly every other class. My son's fighter was also a face and had tons to do in skill challenge situations.
Fighter is one of the best classes in the game. If you find the high level play of it dull, that's totally fair. But the idea that it's weak or falling behind as it levels is just not borne out by how it plays. It destroys things at every level of play.