If there is an extreme obstruction between me and my observer, I have greater cover and, therefore, a +4 circumstance bonus to AC, Reflex vs areas, and Stealth checks made to Hide, Sneak, or otherwise avoid detection. Do I get this same bonus if I am completely behind a big wall, blocking any line of sight? How easy is it to get a +4 circumstance bonus to Avoid Notice?
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Interesting.
Standard cover
gives you a +2 circumstance bonus to AC, to Reflex
saves against area effects, and to Stealth checks to Hide,
Sneak, or otherwise avoid detection. You can increase
this to greater cover using the Take Cover basic action
(page 418), increasing the circumstance bonus to +4.
Avoid Notice can reasonably be said to be trying to avoid detection, since if your roll is good enough, enemies start the combat not having noticed you, which is an even stronger form of them not knowing, than not having detected you.
So that could mean that if say, the champion running Defend opens the door while the rogue who's Avoiding Notice is lurking just a bit back, the rogue could be bagging a big bonus to initiative. Of course you're also a bit further back, but if you have enough Speed, it would still make it quite a bit easier to use your Surprise Attack class feature.
I'm a bit skeptical this is RAI though. Being able to very often grab a +4 to initiative seems like it would be too good to be true, considering that a +2 to initiative tends to cost a feat or class feature.
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Initiative being affected by cover is anyway a weird choice, as cover is dependent on the enemy so you should have multiple initiatives depending on the enemy...
At my tables (many as player) no one gives this bonus and I've never seen a player asking for it anyway. It's better to just forget about it.
I think Incredible Initiative is similarly weird. It buffs all your initiative checks, but this includes Avoid Notice, meaning RAW it helps you become unnoticed. I don't think it's too weird, though. Something that helps you get the jump on people should probably do so regardless of the means used to accomplish it. If the Kool-aid Man starts a battle by busting down a wall, I think he should benefit from the +2 to Athletics both for initiative purposes and breaking down the wall. Assuming the same roll is used for both, of course.
Similarly, the whole reason Stealth can replace Perception for initiative is because Stealth can get the jump on people. So a bonus to that should logically help with initiative, too. I allowed an ambush in the Beginner Box to function this way, and it didn't seem overpowered to me, though I should have allowed both the enemies and the Rogue up the stairs to benefit to keep things fair.
I do see some ways the GM could stop this, such as by only allowing the bonus if the character maintained greater cover throughout the whole process of making it to the square they want to occupy at the start of the battle, similar to Sneak's restrictions on the cover bonus.
Imagine the Fighter opens a door and starts a battle, and everyone starts deliberating their starting positions. If the Rogue chooses to start in the hall, they get the bonus, but what good does it do if they're too far away from the enemies to capitalize on winning initiative? If they choose a piece of cover in the room, closer to the enemies, then they forfeit the bonus because every path to that cover did not itself have cover.
Then again, if the Rogue just starts next to the doorway, they could easily count as having greater cover if that bit of wall is ruled as such, and it would be trivial to get into the room to take advantage of the bonus.
But this is all assuming that there is any cover, and that the GM is allowing a square with cover as a starting position. Sometimes, you just start a fight already in plain view and there's not much you can do about. Essentially, the possibility of gaining this bonus is heavily circumstantial (I know, what a shock).
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Yeah, I see all that. But still, "the party opens a door and there are enemies there, roll initiative" is pretty common. And most of the time when you're opening doors like that you can decide to stand just back around the corner, too. So getting a +4 initiative quite often for basically following a rogue's "plan A" seems too good to be true.
I think Incredible Initiative is similarly weird. It buffs all your initiative checks, but this includes Avoid Notice, meaning RAW it helps you become unnoticed.
That's not what SuperBidi is bringing up.
If you are using Avoid Notice and start an encounter against 3 enemies and against the first you have no cover, against the second you have lesser cover, and against the third you have greater cover - which Stealth bonus do you roll for your one and only initiative roll?
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if there's an enemy from which a PC doesn't have cover or concealment, they can't be hidden and can't even roll Stealth for initiative at all.
Not sure where that is a rule.
It is a rule for encounter mode that you can't stay hidden from an enemy that you don't have cover or concealment from.
But for exploration mode transitioning to encounter mode by rolling initiative, why wouldn't someone still be rolling Stealth for initiative if they were using Avoid Notice during exploration and started the encounter because they were seen by an enemy when they no longer have cover against them?
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And more importantly, if we tweak the example then we end up with the same problem.
If an ally starts the encounter but you have lesser cover against the first two enemies and greater cover against the third, which Stealth bonus do you use? Is there a rule saying that you use the worst?
I wasn't even thinking about cover relativity. Worst bonus does sound logical, but maybe it really is too good to be true either way. The Rogue in the hall could easily start with greater cover against everyone. Should the bonus only count for the purpose of detection then?
Transitioning to encounter mode is not very strictly covered by rules anyway.
Yeah. I will definitely agree with that.
I want to point out that generally:
When you're determining whether to grant a special bonus that isn't defined in the rules, including when a player asks you whether they get a bonus for doing something, ask yourself the following questions.
Is this the result of an interesting, surprising, or novel strategy by the character?
Did this take effort or smart thinking to set up?
Is this easy to replicate in pretty much every battle?
If you answered yes to either of the first two, it's more likely you should assign a bonus—typically a +1 or +2 circumstance bonus. However, if you answered yes to the third, you probably shouldn't unless you really do want to see that tactic used over and over again.
The bonus is clearly defined in the rules, but yes, this advice easily applies to RAI as well.
Edit: Wait, no. There are circumstance bonuses that literally do always apply every battle, such as Incredible Initiative.
After all, i doubt anyone can claim that he has been behind extreme cover vs everyone for the entirety of the duration he has been Avoiding Notice.
I don't think that's difficult to accomplish in a dungeon setting. If the enemies have been staying put in one room all day, then until the PCs even approach that room, the Rogue must have had greater cover against all of them. And if the Rogue stays outside, then the Rogue presumably still has greater cover. Whether that should impact initiative is the question.
Personally, I'm inclined to include the relative bonus when determining if you are noticed by the creatures you have bonuses against but not for the initiative order.
Reasonable enough.
You avoid notice out of encounter mode, you take cover in encounter mode. Without GM say so you don't mix those together. I would say you don't have cover until after you roll initiative.
You avoid notice out of encounter mode, you take cover in encounter mode. Without GM say so you don't mix those together. I would say you don't have cover until after you roll initiative.
You don't need to Take Cover to have cover. Take Cover just improves your cover.
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Yes cover applies to initiative.
Initiative with Hidden Enemies
Source GM Core pg. 25
When members on one or both sides of an impending battle are being stealthy, you'll need to deal with the impacts of Stealth on the start of the encounter. Anyone who's Avoiding Notice should attempt a Stealth check for their initiative. All the normal bonuses and penalties apply, including any bonus for having cover. You can give them the option to roll Perception instead, but if they do, they forsake their Stealth and are definitely going to be detected.
The caveat I would add it that because initiative effects the turn relative to all enemies, I would give a cover bonus/penalty only if it applied to all enemies.
Well I guess that settles it, then.
There's also this on the same page.
Remember to place characters using Stealth in reasonable hiding spots, even if that means you have to adjust the marching order to do so.
So the player Avoiding Notice will often have cover and add the bonus to initiative.
Note this goes both ways: if you have this bonus, opponents using Stealth for initiative will also. Kinda makes Stealth a superior option in many or most circumstances.
Note this goes both ways: if you have this bonus, opponents using Stealth for initiative will also. Kinda makes Stealth a superior option in many or most circumstances.
Maybe if you don't mind walking into every hazard with a minimum proficiency rank of trained.
Note this goes both ways: if you have this bonus, opponents using Stealth for initiative will also. Kinda makes Stealth a superior option in many or most circumstances.Maybe if you don't mind walking into every hazard with a minimum proficiency rank of trained.
That's the tradeoff, right? And shows the value of Trap Finder.
Yet given the amount of combats and how many hazards are in places where one would check for hazards, I'd lean toward Stealth for default exploration. Not that all of my PC builds feature Stealth and/or Dex, it's generally a side investment, but now I'm rethinking that.