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Ready, Aim, Fire! is a high level (15) ability so maybe it's not much of an issue, but I still wonder what are the rationale and the balance behind this action.
For the rationale, well, you give 3 actions to your teammates... I can find a rationale behind Strike Hard! : Your tactics are so good that you force enemies to expose themselves to a free attack. But Ready, Aim, Fire! grants 3 actions, none of them being much circumstantial. How can a character act twice more each round without the help of magic? What are they doing when they are not being commanded? Twiddling their thumbs?
Now, let's look at the balance behind Ready, Aim, Fire! Let's consider a 5-man party (more common than a 4-man one in my opinion) with 2 casters and 2 martials who happen to have a Cantrip with just Trained proficiency and an ok casting stat (18 which is basic at level 15). Their total damage (with EA) is equivalent to a Greatsword Fighter making 2 attacks. And your MAP hasn't moved so you can also attack yourself. Also, it's at range when the Greatsword Fighter needs to get to melee range. And don't speak about the reaction cost as casters rarely need theirs and you can give 2 Reactions to your allies at that level with Drilled Reflexes (and 4 at 18).
Also, my example is very far from optimized, just basic. You can ask the martials to get to Expert/Master proficiency. You can have a 6-man party. You can have an Eidolon or/and an Arboreal Sappling (or other characters can have an Arboreal Sappling or an Eidolon, hello Summoner and their double cantrip). You can have a Gunslinger in the party. You can even add Amp Cantrips (nothing in the ability forbids it).
I mean, what the hell? An ability that gives 2-3 actions to all party members, when did you think it'd be balanced, Paizo?
Also, what's supposed to be the fun behind it? The whole party has to move to your strategy and if anyone plays a Barbarian, well, sorry guy, you're screwed. For me, the Commander should improve what your party is doing, not force everyone to move to the same strategy because there are so many benefits in doing so that it completely counterbalances the lack of versatility.
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If we're just counting actions, Defensive Retreat is a bigger deal at first level, so obviously it matters what actions.
The first action is swap to the ranged weapon. That's only useful if someone isn't holding it. Why aren't they holding a ranged weapon? Because they were probably doing something better. So, this action probably imposes a one-action cost to swap back. It's also probably a backup weapon lagging by a fundamental rune.
Next, we have reload. Reload ranged weapons are worth +1 or +2 damage per die. At this level, that's +3 or +6, but it also means that they're relying on a reload weapon instead of a bow. So, this being good is Gunslinger-specific.
And then, the attack. I don't know why you think the Barbarian is screwed; slings add strength on their damage and even if you dumped Dex, it's not going to be worse accuracy than a second attack. Animal instinct Barbarian specifically won't work with this, but... yeah? Sometimes things don't work together well, and another tactic will be better for them.
Alternatively, two action cantrip. It's two actions, but with the exception of Psychic (who only gets three focus points for the fight regardless of when they're used), cantrips are the backup option when using real spells isn't worth it.
So, in terms of effects, it's probably more like "everybody gets one-and-a-half actions". If a party member isn't specialized in ranged attacks, it's practically neutral- they need to undo the swap, and they take a penalty roughly equal to one MAP step. Not far off using the action to attack on their turn.
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If a party member isn't specialized in ranged attacks, it's practically neutral- they need to undo the swap
No, they just need to grab a cantrip. There are so many ways to grab cantrips it's nearly not a cost. The ranged part is only for ranged focused characters who get a free reload and attack.
Also, you consider a party who doesn't try to benefit from the tactics, which is a bit weird. If your Commander gives you a free cantrip every turn, you grab a cantrip somehow.
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IMO is too party members dependent tactic (as many others tactics are too). If you are in a party full of Gunslinger everyone will love it and it's also a bit OP but if you are in a party with many melee martials is just a meh.
It's part of the general balance that the tactics list needs to become more diversity friendly.
If a party member isn't specialized in ranged attacks, it's practically neutral- they need to undo the swapNo, they just need to grab a cantrip. There are so many ways to grab cantrips it's nearly not a cost. The ranged part is only for ranged focused characters who get a free reload and attack.
Also, you consider a party who doesn't try to benefit from the tactics, which is a bit weird. If your Commander gives you a free cantrip every turn, you grab a cantrip somehow.
So why bring up the three action possibility? It's two actions for everyone, and they're not full-effectiveness actions. Fifteenth level has things like "attack everyone in an area at full effectiveness". This is the inverse, "have everyone in an area attack someone, generally at reduced effectiveness".
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IMO is too party members dependent tactic (as many others tactics are too). If you are in a party full of Gunslinger everyone will love it and it's also a bit OP but if you are in a party with many melee martials is just a meh.
And Gunslingers are already doing things like Risky Reload, Running Reload, and their special Reload action compression ability. Having them reload as part of Ready, Aim, Fire isn't stretching the narrative any more than it is already stretched.
As for the original posting - that was pretty much entirely targeted at the action counting. Is there any support of the original argument to be provided, or are we simply moving on and accepting QuidEst's quite reasonable response?
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Fifteenth level has things like "attack everyone in an area at full effectiveness". This is the inverse, "have everyone in an area attack someone, generally at reduced effectiveness".
You do realize your equivalence is very wrong. Having the whole party attacking once is not equivalent to casting a Fireball, far from it.
It's two actions for everyone, and they're not full-effectiveness actions.
It doesn't change the fact that the result is beyond what any damage dealer can do at these levels especially if the party is just slightly optimized around this tactic.
IMO is too party members dependent tactic (as many others tactics are too).
Grabbing a cantrip is easy, you can do it on most characters (if you have a character who has low Intelligence, Charisma and Wisdow at level 15 you have forgotten a few attribute boosts).
A party full of Gunslinger is crazy, I agree. But a party where everyone has a cantrip is very easy to achieve. And if you have a Summoner with an Eidolon who can cast or a single Gunslinger the damage becomes very quickly out of bounds.As for the original posting - that was pretty much entirely targeted at the action counting. Is there any support of the original argument to be provided, or are we simply moving on and accepting QuidEst's quite reasonable response?
We? As in you speak for the whole community?
If you want to move on, please do. But don't treat my posts as if I was somehow crazy, I've run the numbers they are clearly too high.
IMO is too party members dependent tactic (as many others tactics are too). If you are in a party full of Gunslinger everyone will love it and it's also a bit OP but if you are in a party with many melee martials is just a meh.And Gunslingers are already doing things like Risky Reload, Running Reload, and their special Reload action compression ability. Having them reload as part of Ready, Aim, Fire isn't stretching the narrative any more than it is already stretched.
Depends of what reload step you are and usually if you have a commander using
Ready, Aim, Fire! you don't really needs to use Risky Reload its just add risk to use another action if fails.You basically shot, reload, then you shot again, then when get the Commander turn it uses Ready, Aim, Fire! now all gunslingers reload and shot again without MAP. It's a pretty potent move!
IMO is too party members dependent tactic (as many others tactics are too).Grabbing a cantrip is easy, you can do it on most characters (if you have a character who has low Intelligence, Charisma and Wisdow at level 15 you have forgotten a few attribute boosts).
A party full of Gunslinger is crazy, I agree. But a party where everyone has a cantrip is very easy to achieve. And if you have a Summoner with an Eidolon who can cast or a single Gunslinger the damage becomes very quickly out of bounds.
Yes but if the chars that aren't casters probably will be limited to expert and their mental stats probably wasn't that good as their main attacks with a ranged weapon. Anyway still pretty good.
Another pretty OP combination is a party with a Commander and full of Psychics.
Take EA via Ancestral Mind or Adapted Cantrip and use Unleash and now you can devastate your enemies with lightning!
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usually if you have a commander using
Ready, Aim, Fire! you don't really needs to use Risky Reload its just add risk to use another action if fails.
I'm not saying that the two abilities would combine. (Trying to combine them directly would run into problems with Subordinate Actions rule anyway.)
I'm saying that narratively, Ready, Aim, Fire! isn't causing a gunslinger to reload their weapon any faster than they normally can. So that particular criticism in the OP doesn't really hold. At least, not for gunslinger.
Fifteenth level has things like "attack everyone in an area at full effectiveness". This is the inverse, "have everyone in an area attack someone, generally at reduced effectiveness".You do realize your equivalence is very wrong. Having the whole party attacking once is not equivalent to casting a Fireball, far from it.
Huh? No, I'm talking about those "attack everybody within thirty feet" martial feats that show up in the 16-18 range. But I guess it's single target, so "Barbarian/Fighter two action attack" is probably a better comparison.
It's two actions for everyone, and they're not full-effectiveness actions.It doesn't change the fact that the result is beyond what any damage dealer can do at these levels especially if the party is just slightly optimized around this tactic.
Let's see... 9d4 * 2 at full effect (two save cantrips), and two expert DCs with a secondary stat cantrips for the other 18d4, call that DC - 4. For moderate save at level +1 that's +28, casters are looking at a DC of... +5 stat, +6 expert, +15 level, +10 DC = 36. 45 * (1 * .3 + .5 * .5 + 2 *.05) + 45 * (1 * .1 + .5 * .5 + 2 * .05) = 49.5 damage.
That's about the same as an un-buffed Fighter or Barbarian against level + 1 creature. So... it doesn't seem like too much of an issue to me on the numbers for normal situations. "This is too boring and pushes the team to adapt to the available tactics" is something I'm hoping will be helped by "more tactics".
Yeah, there's plenty more optimization that can be done than for other classes. But that's always gonna be the case when you're optimizing an entire party towards something than just one character. The other classes can get buffs put on them or get things like flanking.
I don't think Ready, Aim, Fire! will let you fire against more than 1 target, and everyone has to target the same target. So there is already a damage limit you can hit (enemy dies) and then excess attacks are all wasted, and Electric Arc probably isn't the best cantrip you can be using for that.
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Let's see... 9d4 * 2 at full effect (two save cantrips), and two expert DCs with a secondary stat cantrips for the other 18d4, call that DC - 4. For moderate save at level +1 that's +28, casters are looking at a DC of... +5 stat, +6 expert, +15 level, +10 DC = 36. 45 * (1 * .3 + .5 * .5 + 2 *.05) + 45 * (1 * .1 + .5 * .5 + 2 * .05) = 49.5 damage.
It's significantly higher. At level 15 I have 69.4 average damage against average Reflex with a bow Strike from the Commander. And it's higher than a Fighter or Barbarian which is around 50 (55.3 for a Greatsword Fighter).
If you have a Summoner among the 2 casters, it's 86.8 damage, roughly 70% more damage than your Fighter or Barbarian.A 5-man party with a Summoner and everyone with a Cantrip is not like the incredible optimization. Significantly outdamaging the biggest damage dealers in the game with such a composition is a problem to me (I've done enough damage comparisons to know when something is out of bounds).