| StrayKit |
I know this is an issue that should be a sit down talk with my GM and we work through the issue together, but I think I could use some outside perspectives.
My GM is using the Free Archetype variant with a catch, the free archetypes gained via the variant rule cannot have the Multiclass trait. I can get behind this idea, but I am doing my best to follow all the rules given and running into a wall while trying to just go to level 2.
I created a Dark Fields Kitsune, Bandit background, Cosmos Oracle (14, 14, 12, 10, 10, 18). Front line intimidation monkey is the idea here. The corresponding archetype I'd like to grab to go along with this is Marshal, which has a martial weapon proficiency prerequisite. To be able to gain this proficiency, my best answer is the Fighter Dedication which I do meet the prerequisite for.
Here is the big debate we have. Dedications' text!
"Special You cannot select another dedication feat until you have gained two other feats from the fighter archetype."
"Special You can't select another dedication feat until you have gained two other feats from the marshal archetype."
My response is that the Free Archetypes as a "variant rule" should vary the rules because of the supposed "increased access to archetype feats" the variant describes in the GMC. In this instance, I think it would be fair to think of the Class Feats and Free Archetype Feats as two different resources that hold the Dedication Feat special rule held separately against them. I see another issue with keeping strict to the special rules written into dedications, my GM has made their campaign hostile towards any character build that wishes to multiclass. Any character build that wishes to multiclass at level 2, by my GM's ruling, is not allowed a Free Archetype until level 8 (maybe 6 depending on how its seen) at the soonest while characters avoiding multiclassing are allowed to reap all rewards.
Response from GM copied from Discord:
"The rules for the free arch type still follow the base rules for the Dedication trait. You need to have 2 other feats from that Archtype before you can acquire another Dedication. You want to take an Archtype that has the Multiclass trait, you can hold off on the Free Archtype until you are able to qualify for it, probably at level 8. In the meanwhile, you are following the normal rules for Archtypes."
I will acknowledge that I can hold off on starting a Free Archetype until level 4 by taking Weapon Proficiency as a general feat at level 3. I welcome all feedback and maybe I need to be told that I am trying to power game the situation.
As written in GMC:
Playing with Free Archetypes
Free-archetype characters are a bit more versatile and powerful than normal, but usually not so much that they unbalance your game. However, due to the characters' increased access to archetype feats, you should place a limit on the number of feats that scale based on a character's number of archetype feats (mainly multiclass Resiliency feats). Allowing a character to benefit from a number of these feats equal to half their level is appropriate.
| Squiggit |
Ultimately despite its popularity free archetype is more of a suggestion, a fragment of an idea, than a complete alternate ruleset, so I think it's hard to talk about how it 'should' be run in that sense too much.
Regarding the issue of feat pools: I think it's better to not separate the pools. While juggling the dedication limit can sometimes be really frustrating, it's something the designers consider core to the game and sometimes forces us to rethink how to put a character together in a way that's not necessarily bad (personally I think the game would be fine without it, too, but it is what it is).
Regarding the multiclass rule your GM has proposed: I'm sort of confused. Are you saying that multiclass characters are given fewer feats than characters who take non-multiclass dedications? If so that seems kind of strange and I'm not sure why, as multiclassing is somewhat unremarkable (there are some exceptional combos, but some really weak ones too).
Or do you mean that a multiclass character has to spend their free archetype feats at 2, 4, and 6 before having the ability to take a second dedication? If that, that's pretty much normal and exactly how someone not taking a multiclass dedication would work too.
| YuriP |
If I'm understanding right you GM doesn't want that you get MC archetype using your bonus feats while fully applies the special rules.
Well this really creates this problematic thing of loose your free archetype bonus feats what's a bit strange but it's how he/she rules it. So be it. I thing that your GM has a good storytelling reason to restrict the FA in this way (the FA rule can be restricted by anyway by the GM. If the GM wants to give a specific archetype in this way like Pathfinder Agent archetype, so your GM can do this).
Anyway you are basically trying to take fighter MC to meet the requirements of Marshal Dedication at level 2 or 4. I don't know if I would allow this even with FA with MC. Instead I would recommend you to play as human to take a level 1 general feat to allow you to get Martial Weapons Proficiency via general feat. This combination of non-bard caster + marshal archetype isn't easy to do without use general feats anyway.
Ascalaphus
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Well, the GM is sorta right, that the writeup of Free Archetype in the GM Core is written in that vein.
If the group all has the same archetype or draws from a
limited list, you might want to ignore the free archetype’s
normal restriction of selecting a certain number of feats
before taking a new archetype. That way a character can
still pursue another archetype that also fits their character.
But the writeup in GMC takes up just a bit more than a quarter of a page, and is mainly concerned with use cases such as "you're all apprentices at a magic school", but requiring everyone to spend class feats on multiclassing into wizard would be a bit hefty for people who want to play a rogue or fighter. So it's very much a sketch for what the GM might do, not a full and hard rule system.
This means on the one hand that the GM can't really say "but RAW says I must handle it this way" because it's very much up to the GM's own decisions. On the other hand, you're already getting more freedom in archetype selection than the GMC is suggesting.
---
In practice, most groups that I see on the forums talking about Free Archetype fall into two main types:
- People playing the Strength of Thousands AP where everyone is supposed to have a dash of primal and/or arcane magic flavor in their character. This one suggests using the "specific archetypes list" approach.
- People playing free archetype "just because". There might be some combinations of archetypes that the GM bans for power reasons, or to avoid monotony of everyone taking the same strong choices. But apart from that, the restriction of branching out into the next archetype for the free archetypes is generally considered to be in a separate silo from any archetypes you take with your "paid" class feats.
In other words, most groups using Free Archetype don't seem to be doing it exactly RAW.
---
Personally I think the RAW rules are a good common ground for starting a discussion, but especially in these kinda sketch-like rules, I think as a GM you shouldn't actually hide behind RAW. You should own your preferences.
| Finoan |
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Free Archetype is a variant rule. Which basically is a houserule that was published by the game developers. It doesn't cover all edge cases.
Some specific cases that it doesn't handle well:
* A player that wants to play a non-archetyped character.
* An archetype that doesn't have feats at all three levels of level 2, level 4, and level 6. (Either dedication at level 4, or only has dedication and one other feat before level 8)
* A character build choice that gives a dedication feat at level 1 such as Ancient Elf heritage, or Eldritch Trickster rogue racket.
As for this specific example, it does feel a bit like you are trying to powergame - though maybe not maliciously.
It is more that you don't want to miss out on that level 2 free archetype feat slot and just leave it blank permanently.
My recommended houserule for the houserule is that you can put a main class feat of up to half the feat level into a free archetype feat slot. So you could put another level 1 Oracle feat into that level 2 free archetype slot. Then take Martial Weapon Proficiency at level 3 and the Marshal dedication at level 4.
| StrayKit |
Regarding the multiclass rule your GM has proposed: I'm sort of confused. Are you saying that multiclass characters are given fewer feats than characters who take non-multiclass dedications? If so that seems kind of strange and I'm not sure why, as multiclassing is somewhat unremarkable (there are some exceptional combos, but some really weak ones too).
Or do you mean that a multiclass character has to spend their free archetype feats at 2, 4, and 6 before having the ability to take a second dedication? If that, that's pretty much normal and exactly how someone not taking a multiclass dedication would work too.
By how it is ruled by my GM, yes, if I use a multiclassing build of any kind for this game, I get denied the free archetype variant for much of the game.
The way I was thinking about it is that if you take the variant rule away, any random character could multiclass without worry. If you then take that multiclass build and apply the Free Archetype variant, why does the character build that includes a multiclass feat get pushed out of the free feats? Any other build enjoys free feats for those levels, but the multiclass gets denied? I personally don't want to look across the table of players at level 4 where they can say "Hey, look at this bonus I got from my Archetype!" and I essentially play without the variant applied to my own character.
Anyway you are basically trying to take fighter MC to meet the requirements of Marshal Dedication at level 2 or 4.
Spend level 2 class feat on multiclass Fighter Dedication and level 2 Free Archetype Marshal Dedication.
Well, the GM is sorta right, that the writeup of Free Archetype in the GM Core is written in that vein.
"However, due to the characters' increased access to archetype feats, you should place a limit on the number of feats that scale based on a character's number of archetype feats (mainly multiclass Resiliency feats)."
This is where I am landing on RAW and the use-case it specifically calls out is feats that scale on Archetypes. To me this say you don't let a character farm Resiliency Feats to gain huge amounts of extra health. For my use, all I ever want is Fighter Dedication which will never scale.
My recommended houserule for the houserule is that you can put a main class feat of up to half the feat level into a free archetype feat slot. So you could put another level 1 Oracle feat into that level 2 free archetype slot. Then take Martial Weapon Proficiency at level 3 and the Marshal dedication at level 4.
There isn't a need to house rule that far if I just take Weapon Proficiency general feat at level 3. Which could be seen as stronger since it gives expert in the weapons at level 11 while Fighter dedication never upgrades, but gives trained in athletics or acrobatics.
| SuperBidi |
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By how it is ruled by my GM, yes, if I use a multiclassing build of any kind for this game, I get denied the free archetype variant for much of the game.
Technically, no. You can wait for level 6 before getting your Multiclassed Archetype and in that case you don't lose any Free Archetype feat. You can also choose to retrain at level 6 or 8 so you get back your Free Archetype feats (in the case you can't imagine your character without its multiclassed Dedication).
But overall, Free Archetype sucks (that's my point of view). The more it is used around me and the more it shows the truckload of issues it brings. I hope Mythic rules will replace it.
| Finoan |
The way I was thinking about it is that if you take the variant rule away, any random character could multiclass without worry. If you then take that multiclass build and apply the Free Archetype variant, why does the character build that includes a multiclass feat get pushed out of the free feats? Any other build enjoys free feats for those levels, but the multiclass gets denied?
For this non-free-archetype character that has a multiclass archetype already, what they are going to gain by shunting their archetype feats into the free-archetype slots is that they will get back their class feats that they were originally paying for the archetype feats with. That is still value to the character build. Though it may not be the value that you personally want for the character.
You aren't going to get two sets of archetype feats at the same time. At least not without additional houserules that you and the GM can agree on.
One possible houserule that I could propose would be to have your class feats and your free-archetype feats not look at each other for either prerequisites or restrictions. That means that you could take Fighter dedication in your level 2 class feat slot and then also take Marshal dedication in your level 2 free archetype feat slot. The restriction for dedication feats wouldn't be looking at the other 'track' when it checks for other dedication feats. That would also mean that you couldn't double up on Marshal feats at level 4 and take Dread Marshal Stance in your level 4 class feat slot and Inspiring Marshal Stance in your level 4 free-archetype feat slot because your class feat 'track' doesn't have Marshal dedication in it. You would only be able to put Oracle feats or Fighter archetype feats in your level 4 class feat slot.
But that is, again, a houserule that you and the GM would have to agree to.
| StrayKit |
One possible houserule that I could propose would be to have your class feats and your free-archetype feats not look at each other for either prerequisites or restrictions. That means that you could take Fighter dedication in your level 2 class feat slot and then also take Marshal dedication in your level 2 free archetype feat slot. The restriction for dedication feats wouldn't be looking at the other 'track' when it checks for other dedication feats. That would also mean that you couldn't double up on Marshal feats at level 4 and take Dread Marshal Stance in your level 4 class feat slot and Inspiring Marshal Stance in your level 4 free-archetype feat slot because your class feat 'track' doesn't have Marshal dedication in it. You would only be able to put Oracle feats or Fighter archetype feats in your level 4 class feat slot.
That's the solution I am pushing for.
In this instance, I think it would be fair to think of the Class Feats and Free Archetype Feats as two different resources that hold the Dedication Feat special rule held separately against them.
I may not have explained myself too well, but I can also say that I needed a place to work out frustration. This is how I assumed the whole system of Free Archetype was expected to work in the first place, but I think I have found something from this thread that I need to go back to my GM with. I was never going to intermix Class Feats and Free Archetype Feats. If my GM sees the Free Archetype as a means to give free reign to alter available Class Feats, then that is more than likely the disconnect we are having.