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* Pathfinder Society GM. 4 posts. No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 11 Organized Play characters.


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I am looking at starting a 1E game for some friends and this came up with a player looking into the Stonelord Archetype for Paladin.

"These benefits are halved when not touching the ground or a stone structure."

This is text about Heartstone, the ability to replace Divine Grace at level 2. I would have been really happy if it stopped at ground, but including stone structure (which I think was done as part of the flavor) makes me stop.

What if they end up on a boat? But I extrapolate from there, second story of the inn built of wood or just that boat runs onto shore and is stuck on land?

I think my answer is to say the character is on ground, mounted, airborne or waterborne? Just break it down mostly into those simple circumstances, but I ABSOLUTELY hate looking back to seeing the call out of stone structure.


Finoan wrote:
One possible houserule that I could propose would be to have your class feats and your free-archetype feats not look at each other for either prerequisites or restrictions. That means that you could take Fighter dedication in your level 2 class feat slot and then also take Marshal dedication in your level 2 free archetype feat slot. The restriction for dedication feats wouldn't be looking at the other 'track' when it checks for other dedication feats. That would also mean that you couldn't double up on Marshal feats at level 4 and take Dread Marshal Stance in your level 4 class feat slot and Inspiring Marshal Stance in your level 4 free-archetype feat slot because your class feat 'track' doesn't have Marshal dedication in it. You would only be able to put Oracle feats or Fighter archetype feats in your level 4 class feat slot.

That's the solution I am pushing for.

StrayKit wrote:
In this instance, I think it would be fair to think of the Class Feats and Free Archetype Feats as two different resources that hold the Dedication Feat special rule held separately against them.

I may not have explained myself too well, but I can also say that I needed a place to work out frustration. This is how I assumed the whole system of Free Archetype was expected to work in the first place, but I think I have found something from this thread that I need to go back to my GM with. I was never going to intermix Class Feats and Free Archetype Feats. If my GM sees the Free Archetype as a means to give free reign to alter available Class Feats, then that is more than likely the disconnect we are having.


Squiggit wrote:

Regarding the multiclass rule your GM has proposed: I'm sort of confused. Are you saying that multiclass characters are given fewer feats than characters who take non-multiclass dedications? If so that seems kind of strange and I'm not sure why, as multiclassing is somewhat unremarkable (there are some exceptional combos, but some really weak ones too).

Or do you mean that a multiclass character has to spend their free archetype feats at 2, 4, and 6 before having the ability to take a second dedication? If that, that's pretty much normal and exactly how someone not taking a multiclass dedication would work too.

By how it is ruled by my GM, yes, if I use a multiclassing build of any kind for this game, I get denied the free archetype variant for much of the game.

The way I was thinking about it is that if you take the variant rule away, any random character could multiclass without worry. If you then take that multiclass build and apply the Free Archetype variant, why does the character build that includes a multiclass feat get pushed out of the free feats? Any other build enjoys free feats for those levels, but the multiclass gets denied? I personally don't want to look across the table of players at level 4 where they can say "Hey, look at this bonus I got from my Archetype!" and I essentially play without the variant applied to my own character.

YuriP wrote:
Anyway you are basically trying to take fighter MC to meet the requirements of Marshal Dedication at level 2 or 4.

Spend level 2 class feat on multiclass Fighter Dedication and level 2 Free Archetype Marshal Dedication.

Ascalaphus wrote:
Well, the GM is sorta right, that the writeup of Free Archetype in the GM Core is written in that vein.

"However, due to the characters' increased access to archetype feats, you should place a limit on the number of feats that scale based on a character's number of archetype feats (mainly multiclass Resiliency feats)."

This is where I am landing on RAW and the use-case it specifically calls out is feats that scale on Archetypes. To me this say you don't let a character farm Resiliency Feats to gain huge amounts of extra health. For my use, all I ever want is Fighter Dedication which will never scale.

Finoan wrote:
My recommended houserule for the houserule is that you can put a main class feat of up to half the feat level into a free archetype feat slot. So you could put another level 1 Oracle feat into that level 2 free archetype slot. Then take Martial Weapon Proficiency at level 3 and the Marshal dedication at level 4.

There isn't a need to house rule that far if I just take Weapon Proficiency general feat at level 3. Which could be seen as stronger since it gives expert in the weapons at level 11 while Fighter dedication never upgrades, but gives trained in athletics or acrobatics.


I know this is an issue that should be a sit down talk with my GM and we work through the issue together, but I think I could use some outside perspectives.

My GM is using the Free Archetype variant with a catch, the free archetypes gained via the variant rule cannot have the Multiclass trait. I can get behind this idea, but I am doing my best to follow all the rules given and running into a wall while trying to just go to level 2.

I created a Dark Fields Kitsune, Bandit background, Cosmos Oracle (14, 14, 12, 10, 10, 18). Front line intimidation monkey is the idea here. The corresponding archetype I'd like to grab to go along with this is Marshal, which has a martial weapon proficiency prerequisite. To be able to gain this proficiency, my best answer is the Fighter Dedication which I do meet the prerequisite for.

Here is the big debate we have. Dedications' text!
"Special You cannot select another dedication feat until you have gained two other feats from the fighter archetype."
"Special You can't select another dedication feat until you have gained two other feats from the marshal archetype."

My response is that the Free Archetypes as a "variant rule" should vary the rules because of the supposed "increased access to archetype feats" the variant describes in the GMC. In this instance, I think it would be fair to think of the Class Feats and Free Archetype Feats as two different resources that hold the Dedication Feat special rule held separately against them. I see another issue with keeping strict to the special rules written into dedications, my GM has made their campaign hostile towards any character build that wishes to multiclass. Any character build that wishes to multiclass at level 2, by my GM's ruling, is not allowed a Free Archetype until level 8 (maybe 6 depending on how its seen) at the soonest while characters avoiding multiclassing are allowed to reap all rewards.

Response from GM copied from Discord:

"The rules for the free arch type still follow the base rules for the Dedication trait. You need to have 2 other feats from that Archtype before you can acquire another Dedication. You want to take an Archtype that has the Multiclass trait, you can hold off on the Free Archtype until you are able to qualify for it, probably at level 8. In the meanwhile, you are following the normal rules for Archtypes."

I will acknowledge that I can hold off on starting a Free Archetype until level 4 by taking Weapon Proficiency as a general feat at level 3. I welcome all feedback and maybe I need to be told that I am trying to power game the situation.

As written in GMC:

Playing with Free Archetypes
Free-archetype characters are a bit more versatile and powerful than normal, but usually not so much that they unbalance your game. However, due to the characters' increased access to archetype feats, you should place a limit on the number of feats that scale based on a character's number of archetype feats (mainly multiclass Resiliency feats). Allowing a character to benefit from a number of these feats equal to half their level is appropriate.