I know they're not rumors. Because my group is about to play Second Darkness using PF2 rules.
But of course I realize no ORC drow. etc, etc
I haven't found the Koriah Azmeren mention from Sky King's Tomb yet, but given that adventure was published under OGL they can at least indirectly reference the drow article, which I assume they would not be able to do in ORC adventures.
Check the References at the end of the wiki article I linked to above. It gives specific page numbers for every book in which Koriah Azmeren is mentioned.
No need to search more; I found the twitch stream where James mentions it. Check out the 20 minute mark.
https://m.twitch.tv/videos/1831877743
Aaaaand I was wrong. His statement there makes it much clearer that they do have an in-world unreliable narrator thing, though that article doesn't sound likeit tmentions drow specifically. Sorry gang. I'll say it louder for the people at the back.
CAPTAIN MORGAN WAS WRONG.
Gonna duck in here to lightly tap my "there should be an authoritative centralized official FAQ that covers a few wide-reaching major canon changes" drum again for those of us who can't, and others of us who don't know about, and the few of us who were completely either off-planet or buried underground for the last few years and couldn't, watch hour-long uncaptioned Twitch streams that contain a few minutes of crucial context about very frequently asked-after major canon changes.
Just very lightly. A tiiiiny little .
I would like a, and this is now the story so far
Creative Director
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Gonna duck in here to lightly tap my "there should be an authoritative centralized official FAQ that covers a few wide-reaching major canon changes" drum again for those of us who can't, and others of us who don't know about, and the few of us who were completely either off-planet or buried underground for the last few years and couldn't, watch hour-long uncaptioned* Twitch streams that contain a few minutes of crucial context about very frequently asked-after major canon changes.
Just very lightly. A tiiiiny little .
Alas, that's a complicated and pretty much undoable ask for us at this time—the remaster wreaked havoc on our production schedule and we're still in the process of recovering and catching up to the normal flow of work, which doesn't really have much room for an official thing like this from the creative team even during standard times. :(
We're like sharks. If we stop swimming (working on creating the next products to be released) we sink and drown!
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Please keep a healthy balance of work, sanity, and health. I prefer the wonderful folks at Paizo not drown.
This community probably can help on that note.
Probably in the lost omens forum. I can start a thread asking the community what is the story so far for the setting?
And James can jump in to tell us we are all way off track lol.
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Creative Director
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This community probably can help on that note.
Probably in the lost omens forum. I can start a thread asking the community what is the story so far for the setting?
And James can jump in to tell us we are all way off track lol.
This is precisely the type of thing that's a great community project. And I'm not really the one to jump in to tell you if you're off track anymore... that's a Luis Loza thing, since he's the creative director for the rules and lore. I'm just the creative director for adventures these days.
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I have to say, I genuinely prefer PF2's use of unreliable narrators, rather than the book telling you exactly who is living in the scary place under the ground or what exactly happens when you die or whatever.
Like it's okay if people reading the books and running games don't know what exactly happened to the Drow when they were in old books and aren't in the new books. There are lots of things that have come up in Pathfinder in the past that have not come up since then, and no one knows what's going to come up the the future. There's little to be gained from telling people "here are the things that we will never talk about again."
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Like the interesting thing about PF2 Drow is that you have stat blocks and even examples of NOCs and archetypes they could offer PCs, so any GM wanting to do a big Drow campaign in the darklands really can, with very little fear that some new book is going to come out and say “no, that’s not what can happen with these characters!” Like just make up names for your under dark cities and you really have nothing else to worry about. I get that no new adventures will be written with them and some Darklands stuff will supersede vast tales of their empires, but there is more material currently to tell an in-depth Drow story set in PF2 Golarion than there is Kholo material, Iruxi material, gripping material, or really even halfling material not set in Cheliax or their colonies. Even the Sekmin feel like they needed a big PF2 revival before finding out they were taking over most of the darklands. There are a lot of great new stories I look forward to finding out more about.
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I never liked the idea of the deep underground being full of dangerous psionic monsters and evil elves.
I prefer my center of the earth to bull of barbarians in loincloths and bikinis riding dinosaurs and fighting ancient serpentine mystic cults.
So the idea that the barbarians in loincloths might be elvish works for me.
And even if the reason is legal; I am so glad to see the 'Curse of Ham' get tossed out of the game I prefer.
I misread this and now I can't get the image of a Velociraptor in a swimsuit out of my head.
I wonder... does Norse mythology predate Tolkien?
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I wonder... does Norse mythology predate Tolkien?
I...Are you serious?
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I wonder... does Norse mythology predate Tolkien?I...Are you serious?
Almost definitely not. Reppert seems more likely to be responding to the claim that Tolkien's dark elf is the "original" despite Norse myth being, well, right there.
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There's a real probability that the "dark elves" in the Prose Edda were just a poetic way of describing what eventually became Dwarves via Tolkien.
Like if you wanted to say "our dark elves are from Norse Mythology, not D&D" to make that bit stick, you kind of not have to have Dwarves around. Like that Amalur game that Curt Schilling defrauded the state of Rhode Island to get made- the main fantasy peoples were Humans, Elves, and Gnomes.
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No need to search more; I found the twitch stream where James mentions it. Check out the 20 minute mark.
https://m.twitch.tv/videos/1831877743
Aaaaand I was wrong. His statement there makes it much clearer that they do have an in-world unreliable narrator thing, though that article doesn't sound likeit tmentions drow specifically. Sorry gang. I'll say it louder for the people at the back.
CAPTAIN MORGAN WAS WRONG.
*small fist pump*
Overworm
I have to say, I genuinely prefer PF2's use of unreliable narrators, rather than the book telling you exactly who is living in the scary place under the ground or what exactly happens when you die or whatever.
Like it's okay if people reading the books and running games don't know what exactly happened to the Drow when they were in old books and aren't in the new books. There are lots of things that have come up in Pathfinder in the past that have not come up since then, and no one knows what's going to come up the the future. There's little to be gained from telling people "here are the things that we will never talk about again."
A more nuanced version of my original take would be that I like unreliability in the narration, when it's at least reasonably clear to the IRL audience that the narrator might be unreliable.
In the case of Koriah Azmeren, it's not that she is merely incorrect or uninformed; it's that she lied to the audience without any ability for the audience to ferret out the existence of the lie. Which I fully understand is almost certainly because she wasn't meant to have been lying originally, but it still rankles. But I also understand that my feelings on the matter aren't likely to change, so Ima step out so as not to continue to stir the pot.
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In the case of Koriah Azmeren, it's not that she is merely incorrect or uninformed; it's that she lied to the audience without any ability for the audience to ferret out the existence of the lie. Which I fully understand is almost certainly because she wasn't meant to have been lying originally, but it still rankles. But I also understand that my feelings on the matter aren't likely to change, so Ima step out so as not to continue to stir the pot.
The drow are a bit special, because they are one of the few "full retcon" that Paizo have done. Koriah being an unreliable narrator isn't meant to "fool" the players into thinking that the drow never existed in the first place, because drows appeard in AP and pathfinder product beyond just the story she relayed. They interacted with player groups and all that, them not existing anymore in golarion is an undeniable retcon. I think that what Paizo is trying to do by stating that she "lied about them all along" is to keep a continuity in golarion, by making it so that her "leak" still happenned, and it still had consequences, except that she was lying all along.
Compare to the old "goblin/orcs/gnolls/whatever are always evil", into the current "evil races don't exist". For this point, it's also clear that Paizo changed their stance, but it can be completely explained away without having to change golarion. None of the old AP/material required all goblins to always be born evil, because the players facing evil goblins here aren't a proof that the other tribe 10 miles away is also villainous. In this case, simply stipulating that the old books were written from a human avistani POV cleanly explain it all away.
Basically, what I meant to say is that Koriah "lying" isn't meant to be directed to the audience to justify drows not being there anymore, as that lie isn't enought to explain drows away when the players fought them or even played as them in PF1. It's here I think mostly to keep some of the consequences of the second darkness AP, even if it's flipped on it's head as it's now false info. Paizo do use unreliable narrator to justify some retcon, but I don't think that it's the case here.