Hi all. This isn't a rules question, but I'm still in need of advice. I'm writing an adventure where the PCs will meet a sphinx. The sphinx will, naturally, ask the PCs a series of 5 riddles. The first 4 are fairly classic ones, but I wanted the final riddle to be tough. And I'm not clever enough to write a good riddle so I turned to AI. This is what I put together after a few tries.
Is this riddle too difficult? If so, are there any good ways to simple it up a bit? Important note: the answers to all five riddles are plot relevant, so I can't just pick another challenging riddle that has a different answer.
So:
In mirrored whispers, a duo aligned;
A twin truth in digits defined.
Prime in its essence, a mystery to explore;
Symmetry’s secret in numerical lore.
The main issue is that the first line and last lines focus on 11 being symmetrical which is very dependent on how you write 1s. This makes a weird thing where the only 2 relevant lines are the middle two.
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Hilary put together a bunch of riddles for the repeatable PFS scenario Cat's Cradle.
Reading the riddle before checking the answer I felt that the answer would be a pair of numbers that if you reflected one would create the other and that the resulting image would appear symmetrical and add up to a prime number.
And I had no idea what number that would be other than getting really creative with something point something.
Then I clicked to see the answer and I found out why I didn't get the answer.
The first line is a misdirect because mirroring has nothing to do with anything. The second line does convey that it's going to be a number with 2 identical digits. The third line then narrowing that down to being 11 since that's the only 2-digit same-digit prime number - but then the mystery bit added to keep the rhyme structure could potentially mislead someone since it's just noise. The final line is a misdirect as well because the only way that 11 is symmetrical is if we arbitrarily write one of the digits backwards - which if you actually want just that, written as an answer rather than spoken, this and the first line have a purpose again - and the "secret in numerical lore" part being again a case of noise added to force a rhyme which could mislead the participant.
MEATSHED wrote: The main issue is that the first line and last lines focus on 11 being symmetrical which is very dependent on how you write 1s. This makes a weird thing where the only 2 relevant lines are the middle two. Hmm. That's a good point. I'm not sure how to rectify that, but I'll give it some thought.
thenobledrake wrote: Reading the riddle before checking the answer I felt that the answer would be a pair of numbers that if you reflected one would create the other and that the resulting image would appear symmetrical and add up to a prime number.
And I had no idea what number that would be other than getting really creative with something point something.
Then I clicked to see the answer and I found out why I didn't get the answer.
The first line is a misdirect because mirroring has nothing to do with anything. The second line does convey that it's going to be a number with 2 identical digits. The third line then narrowing that down to being 11 since that's the only 2-digit same-digit prime number - but then the mystery bit added to keep the rhyme structure could potentially mislead someone since it's just noise. The final line is a misdirect as well because the only way that 11 is symmetrical is if we arbitrarily write one of the digits backwards - which if you actually want just that, written as an answer rather than spoken, this and the first line have a purpose again - and the "secret in numerical lore" part being again a case of noise added to force a rhyme which could mislead the participant.
To your first point, the AI's original riddle used the word palindromic instead of mirrored and I changed it because I was afraid it would be a bit too wordy, but palindromic is the more accurate term. Also yeah, I see what you mean about it seeming a tad forced just for the sake of a rhyme. I may have to drop that.
*Workshopping time*
Okay, this is my revision. I've swapped out "mirrored" for "palindromic" because that's the actual mathematical term, and changed "Symmetry's secret" to "Aucturn's secret." This campaign heavily involves the Aucturn Engima, and the PCs will have heard of the planet before meeting the sphinx, so if they're stumped I might offer an Intelligence check to hint that Aucturn is the 11th planet in the solar system. Anyway, revision:
In palindromic whispers, a duo aligned;
A twin truth in digits defined.
Prime in its essence, a mystery to explore;
Aucturn's secret in numerical lore.
It seems others are focusing on whether the fluffier aspects of the riddle are (too) misleading or not. But IMO underneath the fluff it's a basic riddle for somebody into math. So difficulty depends on your table (like most if not all riddles do). As soon as I read "numerical" the words "prime" & "symmetry" sparked the answer instantly. From there one can reflect on how the other parts could apply too (albeit inconsistently). Again IMO those bits aren't misleading so as to give up on the correct answer (which would place the riddle in the "too difficult" category).
If anything I found it on the easy side, but since the answer wasn't obvious until the last line and required some double-checking, there's still a sense of accomplishment. And as a riddle, it's not like it has to be rigorous like some computer code, no more than crossword puzzle clues have to use strict definitions.
(I might change my mind if failure equals TPK!)
Castilliano wrote: It seems others are focusing on whether the fluffier aspects of the riddle are (too) misleading or not. But IMO underneath the fluff it's a basic riddle for somebody into math. So difficulty depends on your table (like most if not all riddles do). As soon as I read "numerical" the words "prime" & "symmetry" sparked the answer instantly. From there one can reflect on how the other parts could apply too (albeit inconsistently). Again IMO those bits aren't misleading so as to give up on the correct answer (which would place the riddle in the "too difficult" category).
If anything I found it on the easy side, but since the answer wasn't obvious until the last line and required some double-checking, there's still a sense of accomplishment. And as a riddle, it's not like it has to be rigorous like some computer code, no more than crossword puzzle clues have to use strict definitions.
(I might change my mind if failure equals TPK!)
Agree with this. I was able to answer the riddle correctly a few seconds after reading it. This riddle shouldn't substantially stymie your players. (Although players work in mysterious ways.)
Thanks for all the input everyone, it was very helpful. I'm not sure what I'll settle on, but the different perspectives certainly helped.
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You may not need this input, but as a player I hate riddles because it removes the player character from the equation and focuses on what the player knows or can figure out. To me, that is bad design for a role playing game.
I'm not sure if the answer is to allow players to roll some kind of check for success, but perhaps also allow a player (and not their character) to answer the question if no PC is successful.
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Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
As always with any "gate" challenge, I would recommend keeping the Three Clue Rule in mind.
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Dragonchess Player wrote: As always with any "gate" challenge, I would recommend keeping the Three Clue Rule in mind. That's a really good read!
As for the OP: I thought it would be a prime number with two digits, and I had to look up a list of primes because I'm dum and arrived at 11. It felt forgettable and fillery, though.
Personally, I almost never challenge the players to challenges that cannot be overcome by character actions if they so wished.
Some players will like being personally challenged by out-of-character things. Some people will not.
To accommodate those who will not, I try to plan out character-focused answers to such challenges. Like intelligence checks for a logic-based clue or maybe a society check for a linguistics clue. Perhaps the answer has to be input into a number pad or some such; perception could allow a PC to notice a particular key or set of keys had been previously pressed.
And if they get really stuck (or just don't want to engage with puzzles) they can try and fight their way through. If it's a Sphinx, it's got stats, and if it's got stats it can be killed.
Claxon wrote: You may not need this input, but as a player I hate riddles because it removes the player character from the equation and focuses on what the player knows or can figure out. To me, that is bad design for a role playing game.
I'm not sure if the answer is to allow players to roll some kind of check for success, but perhaps also allow a player (and not their character) to answer the question if no PC is successful.
I absolutely hear you on this. And normally I would agree, but there's some details about my campaign and players that are salient. I'm trying a lot of new things - I've gotten bored running "standard" campaigns, so for this one, I'm including a lot of elements I've never used before. This is a Pathfinder 1e game for context. I am utilizing rules for corruptions, factions, and some homebrew stuff that I think/hope will be neat. I'm also seeding some very non-standard and unusual combats into the mix. I have no idea if any of this stuff will work; I'm throwing a whole lot of mud at the wall, and hoping some of it will stick. I want to experiment and get out of my comfort zone as a GM, while also getting my (seasoned) players out of their comfort zones. If it becomes clear one of my ideas is a dud, I'll drop it.
Regarding this riddle, it is purely optional. The PCs may not even engage with the sphinx. If they do, she will offer five riddles, and the players will have 7 tries to answer them. If they solve at least 3 riddles, the sphinx gives them some juicy (but not plot essential) information. If they solve all 5, she is impressed and gives them a bonus prize. There's no penalty for failure. That said, if the players are struggling, I will probably allow an Intelligence or Knowledge check to give a hint.
Dragonchess Player wrote: As always with any "gate" challenge, I would recommend keeping the Three Clue Rule in mind. Oh that's good advice. Thank you! So more context: my campaign revolves around the Aucturn Enigma. The number 11 is closely associated with the Enigma. I've decided to change the last line to "Aucturn’s secret in numerical lore." I won't outright tell the players that Aucturn is the 11th planet from the sun, but if they poke this clue enough, I'll mention it offhandedly. Additionally I remembered that earlier the PCs find a Bad Guy Journal handout, written by a cultist who has gone bonkers. For fun, I replaced any instance of two Ls with 11 instead. So instead of writing "All your bases are belong to us," it would be written "A11 your bases are belong to us." It's subtle but happens often enough that I'm fairly sure at least one player will notice it. So... I guess I just need one more clue.
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WatersLethe wrote:
As for the OP: I thought it would be a prime number with two digits, and I had to look up a list of primes because I'm dum and arrived at 11. It felt forgettable and fillery, though. Yeah, without the Aucturn Enigma context mentioned above, it definitely would be fillery. But I'm seeding the number 11 (and also 56) throughout the campaign, so it wasn't just some arbitrary choice on my part.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
I figured it out, but this seems to test something a player would know, not a character.
Ectar wrote: Personally, I almost never challenge the players to challenges that cannot be overcome by character actions if they so wished.
Some players will like being personally challenged by out-of-character things. Some people will not.
To accommodate those who will not, I try to plan out character-focused answers to such challenges. Like intelligence checks for a logic-based clue or maybe a society check for a linguistics clue. Perhaps the answer has to be input into a number pad or some such; perception could allow a PC to notice a particular key or set of keys had been previously pressed.
And if they get really stuck (or just don't want to engage with puzzles) they can try and fight their way through. If it's a Sphinx, it's got stats, and if it's got stats it can be killed.
Though the differentiation between player and character challenges is not so straightforward.
For example, in our current campaign he have a difficult situation, an objective and a lot of obstacles in achieving it. Both (in-game) social and of power level (a lot of enemies). I as a player have no idea how to do what the characters want to do. And even if I have some ideas I don't know at all which would work and which would fail catastrophically (so basically which the GM thinks are possible and which aren't). And the stakes are very high. Is this a player or a character challenge?
(Also it seems we are failing in the end. And it's very much not fun at all :( )
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Player and character can never be separated entirely. The tactics the PC uses in combat are decided by the player, who may be incompetently guiding a supposedly super-experienced level 20 fighter, or flawlessly choosing the best possible course of action for a novice adventurer with low intelligence.
Because of this, making it a matter of principle is a little absurd. Where to draw the line comes down to personal taste.
Megistone wrote: Player and character can never be separated entirely. The tactics the PC uses in combat are decided by the player, who may be incompetently guiding a supposedly super-experienced level 20 fighter, or flawlessly choosing the best possible course of action for a novice adventurer with low intelligence.
Because of this, making it a matter of principle is a little absurd. Where to draw the line comes down to personal taste.
You're correct that they can never be completely separated, but if the riddle can't be solved by a dice roll and doesn't utilize the character stats in some way, then it's purely a challenge for the player, not the player character.
So in this case, as a matter of principle, I hate riddles in TTRPGs.
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