Oracles are a good example of non-Cleric Divine casters that can perfectly be priests of a religion.
Not exactly? The whole point of oracles is that they forcefully take divine powers from deities by cursing themselves. Oracles don't even have to be religious and even if they I don't think a lot of churches would want someone thats essentialy stealing power from a deity to be a priest there.
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Oracles are a good example of non-Cleric Divine casters that can perfectly be priests of a religion.Not exactly? The whole point of oracles is that they forcefully take divine powers from deities by cursing themselves. Oracles don't even have to be religious and even if they I don't think a lot of churches would want someone thats essentialy stealing power from a deity to be a priest there.
That is one take on Oracles, but not the only one.
Also :
"Seat of the former capital of Imperial Lung Wa, the Successor State of Po Li is now a monotheistic theocracy run by a council of powerful oracles in Changdo who await the reincarnation of the Eternal Emperor.
1"
Last time I checked, theocracy implies a religion.
And not all religions are devoted to deities anyway.
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Not exactly? The whole point of oracles is that they forcefully take divine powers from deities by cursing themselves. Oracles don't even have to be religious and even if they I don't think a lot of churches would want someone thats essentialy stealing power from a deity to be a priest there.
Oracles don't steal power either, though, their powers are basically the cosmic equivalent of a multi-car pileup. Many don't even want their powers, much less the curse that comes with them, though what they do with those powers is up to them. It's entirely possible for an Oracle to worship and even serve a deity, especially if that deity relates in some way to their mystery.
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Also, I think it's important to point out that one can be a priest or warrior of à non deity religion / philosophy, without being à cleric/Champion.
I mean Druid and some flavor of Rangers are exactly that, for Nature.
And in a home games, it is quite easy to get away with the deity part.
So alignment will be gone. But there really is only one thing that has the potential to change from removing alignment. That would be how you qualify for a specific path Paladin, Redeemer, Liberator etc...
For example a Champion of Iomedae
Would have the holy sanctification and the following rules to follow to keep their powers.
- You must never perform acts anathema to your deity or willingly commit an evil act, such as murder, torture, or the casting of an evil spell.
- You must never knowingly harm an innocent, or allow immediate harm to one through inaction when you know you could reasonably prevent it. This tenet doesn't force you to take action against possible harm to innocents at an indefinite time in the future, or to sacrifice your life to protect them.
and
Edicts: be temperate, fight for justice and honor, hold valor in your heart
Anathema: abandon a companion in need, dishonor yourself, refuse a challenge from an equal
I wonder how they will decide which deities support which paths?
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I wonder how they will decide which deities support which paths?
I obviously can't speak for anyone at Paizo, but if I were to frame it, I'd state that you can pick any cause along with any deity, but you can't pick a cause whose tenets contradict your deity's edicts and anathema. Thus, you'd obviously still be able to play a Paladin or Redeemer of Iomedae, but also potentially a Liberator or even a Tyrant if you want to go for a hellknight. You would, however, not be able to play an Antipaladin of Iomedae, as the cause's tenets are anathema to hers.
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So alignment will be gone. But there really is only one thing that has the potential to change from removing alignment. That would be how you qualify for a specific path Paladin, Redeemer, Liberator etc...
For example a Champion of Iomedae
Would have the holy sanctification and the following rules to follow to keep their powers.- You must never perform acts anathema to your deity or willingly commit an evil act, such as murder, torture, or the casting of an evil spell.
- You must never knowingly harm an innocent, or allow immediate harm to one through inaction when you know you could reasonably prevent it. This tenet doesn't force you to take action against possible harm to innocents at an indefinite time in the future, or to sacrifice your life to protect them.and
Edicts: be temperate, fight for justice and honor, hold valor in your heart
Anathema: abandon a companion in need, dishonor yourself, refuse a challenge from an equalI wonder how they will decide which deities support which paths?
This already was defined in Pathfinder Core Rulebook Errata (Remaster Compatibility)
Now Champions of Imoeade only need to follow the Iomedae anathemas:abandon a companion in need, dishonor yourself, refuse a challenge from an equal
The The Tenets of Good anathema:
commit murder, engage in torture
And the Cause anathema:
take advantage of another, cheat
kill a sapient enemy without first offering a chance at redemption
force or threaten someone to act a certain way, engage in slavery or tyranny
And that is it!
Evil act and evil spell concept no longer exists and is no more an anathema, not harm an innocent now just an Edict and no more is an anathema.
The champions range of deities improved a lot. You can follow any deity that allows followers to be holy sanctified. We already made many of jokes and observation about it in other topics.
Things like paladins of Calistria, Cayden Cailean, Desna, Gorum, Nethys or Liberators of Abadar, Erastil, Gorum, Iomedae, Irori, Nethys, Torag are now possible.
I wonder how they will decide which deities support which paths?I obviously can't speak for anyone at Paizo, but if I were to frame it, I'd state that you can pick any cause along with any deity, but you can't pick a cause whose tenets contradict your deity's edicts and anathema. Thus, you'd obviously still be able to play a Paladin or Redeemer of Iomedae, but also potentially a Liberator or even a Tyrant if you want to go for a hellknight. You would, however, not be able to play an Antipaladin of Iomedae, as the cause's tenets are anathema to hers.
The deities values precedes the champions causes and tenets so in case of conflict you follow your deity without any additional problems. Usually the holy requirement already restrict contradictions enough.
So you can play as Liberator of Iomedae without problems because the very concept of lawful and chaotic alighment doesn't exist anymore but you cannot be a Tyrant of her because Tyrant requires a deity that allows unholy, same for Antipaladin.
I do think the final version of the remaster champion will have a bit more expanded rules on which deities can take what causes.
The errata currently is basically, holy and unholy But if a deity allowed it before but doesn't allow sanctification they can also use it. Which is fine for errata but not for a stand alone book/book that is remaster only. Which basically means either those champions will either not be playable in the remaster version or the rules will need to be a bit more robust and defined.
Reskinning the unholy champions into something that is actually playable in most games and doesn't require the HM to house rule or rules lawyer the tenents would be quite welcome.
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A tyrant is someone who believes they are entitled to dominate others because they are stronger
If a champ of Asmodeus you would take on the following edicts and anathema:
Tenet of Evil
Edict: do not put another’s needs before your own or those of your deity
Anathema: commit an entirely altruistic act, such as giving something away in charity
Tyrant
Edicts: enforce proper hierarchies, topple illegitimate hierarchies, lead when you are the most suited to the task
Anathema: let one who is lesser than you wield power over you or lead you
and for Asmodius
Edicts: negotiate contracts to your best advantage, rule tyrannically and torture weaker beings, show subservience to your betters
Anathema: break a contract, free a slave, insult Asmodeus by showing mercy to your enemies
Asmodeus at least gives a tyrant some ability to be in a party if they sign a contract with terms that allow them to just be upholding the contact when the party does good things that you would rather do differently according to your edicts.
Yes the tyrant now is way more selfish than evil.
You can also be a Tyrant of Abadar too...:
Abadar anathema: engage in banditry or piracy, steal, undermine a law-abiding court
Tenet of Evil Anathema: commit an entirely altruistic act, such as giving something away in charity
Tyrant Anathema: let one who is lesser than you wield power over you or lead you
...and play has Judge Dredd !!!
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Just saw Badluckgamers "All Changes to Champion in Pathfinder 2e's Remaster" video and my wish has been granted. Expand Aura was brought down from lvl 16 to lvl 6, is for all auras of the Champion at once, and gets better at lvls 10 and 16 (lasts one minute at lvl 10 and until dismissed at lvl 16). Thank you for listening, Paizo!
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Having watched the entire video now, the new feats overall seem really good. As someone who really likes the Champion, I'm very happy.
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bit of a letdown for non holy champions. Holy or ex good ones have some pretty damn good options