If a GM wanted to say 'no' to this, the first thing that comes to mind is that weapons are of the category that they are being used for at the time.
I have only seen this being called out in the rules/clarifications regarding the handedness of weapons. So a 1-hand weapon is inherently a 1-hand weapon. But if it is being wielded in two hands, then you can treat the weapon as a 2-hand weapon for using abilities that require using a 2-hand weapon.
In this case, the idea being that the requirement is that you are wielding two melee weapons during the Twin Feint action. So if you are making ranged attacks with the weapons, then those are ranged weapons that you are using.
It feels like that is a bit shaky of an argument.
But it also feels like the feat is intended to be used at melee range, not with ranged weapons.
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I'm playing an Exemplar, and dipping heavily into both Rogue and Ranger in order to do a funny throwing weapons build.
The Twin Feint feat says:
"Requirements: You are wielding two melee weapons, each in a different hand.
"You use an attack with one weapon to distract your foe from a second attack coming at a different angle. Make one Strike with each of your two melee weapons, both against the same target. The target is automatically off-guard against the second attack. Apply your multiple attack penalty to the Strikes normally"
Most class feats specify "Melee weapon Strike". Since, in this case, that is not specified, does that mean I would be able to, say, throw two daggers at the same target and cause sneak attack damage with the second one?
The general ruling I have seen is 'a melee weapon becomes a ranged weapon when you throw it so a thief rogue does not get dex to dmg with a thrown melee weapon.'
Applying this logic to Twin Feint, there are two issues that immediately come up:
- 1) As soon as you start to make your first attack, you are no longer wielding two melee weapons.
- 2) Even if you count your weapons as 'melee' you still no longer meet the ability prerequisite after you make your first attack (since you just threw that weapon) unless you have the returning rune.
https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=1951
A feat already exists to cover throwing two weapons.
But Dual Thrower only applies when using "a dual-weapon warrior feat" that normally "allows you to make a melee Strike." I don't believe that Twin Feint is on the list of Dual-weapon Warrior feats.
I think there are a couple reasons this doesn't work.
1) Twin Feint specifies melee weapons. When thrown it is pretty well established that your melee weapon stops counting as a melee weapon and starts counting as a ranged weapon. To the point where rogues stop getting dex to damage.
2) Even if you ignore your weapon becoming ranged, when you throw a weapon, you are no longer wielding two weapons.
To me, RAW, the feat works with two melee weapons that are thrown. This includes hatchets, tridents, or any melee weapon with the thrown trait.
Also, thieves do get Dex to damage with thrown melee weapons that have the appropriate traits (daggers and throwing knives). Aside from RAW, it's just cool. Thieves throwning daggers is classic fantasy. Shadowspawn from the Thieves World anthologies comes immediately to mind.
So, yeah, you throw one hatchet overhand, then the other hatchet underhand at your MAP. The target is off-guard for the second attack. You are now disarmed.
The answer is no, a Weapon stops being a Melee Weapon the moment you decide to use it as a Thrown Weapon, period.
Any other interpretation opens several cans of worms with regard to several feats, runes, rune duplication effects, buff spells, and class features.
Where is there a rule that says that? There is not one. In fact, there are ranged weapons with the thrown trait, and melee weapons with the thrown trait. The classification of melee and ranged is right in the Core Rulebook.
Describe an interaction where this breaks something? Throwing weapons has never been that great. You need to specialize with feats, returning runes, etc. to make it work well.
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The answer is no, a Weapon stops being a Melee Weapon the moment you decide to use it as a Thrown Weapon, period.
Any other interpretation opens several cans of worms with regard to several feats, runes, rune duplication effects, buff spells, and class features.
Where is there a rule that says that? There is not one. In fact, there are ranged weapons with the thrown trait, and melee weapons with the thrown trait. The classification of melee and ranged is right in the Core Rulebook.
Describe an interaction where this breaks something? Throwing weapons has never been that great. You need to specialize with feats, returning runes, etc. to make it work well.
Yes, they are Ranged Weapons as soon as you so much as declare that your Attack (a required step that is almost always ignored/skipped unless a creature has one of a handful of Reactions that trigger off of declared Attacks/Strikes such as the Rogue Nimble Dodge and similar effects, most people don't even know this timing window exists BEFORE rolling an attack as it rarely matters but it absolutely does mechanically exist) and the cease to be Melee Weapons which invalidates any and all designations for all purposes for the Weapon with regard to it being a Melee Weapon such as Runes, Feats, Weapon Traits, Spell Effects, Class Abilities and so forth.
This is a settled topic that was specifically and intentionally cleared up via intentional Errata to the Thrown Trait.
2) Even if you ignore your weapon becoming ranged, when you throw a weapon, you are no longer wielding two weapons.
This is easily overcome with free-hand weapons: you'll always have a weapon in that hand if you have 2 gauntlets on for instance.
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To me, RAW, the feat works with two melee weapons that are thrown. This includes hatchets, tridents, or any melee weapon with the thrown trait.
Also, thieves do get Dex to damage with thrown melee weapons that have the appropriate traits (daggers and throwing knives). Aside from RAW, it's just cool. Thieves throwning daggers is classic fantasy. Shadowspawn from the Thieves World anthologies comes immediately to mind.
So, yeah, you throw one hatchet overhand, then the other hatchet underhand at your MAP. The target is off-guard for the second attack. You are now disarmed.
By RAW this is all flatly wrong. If you want to houserule it at your table because you think it's cool, that's great. But telling people the rules already work that way is simply not true.
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By RAW this is all flatly wrong. If you want to houserule it at your table because you think it's cool, that's great. But telling people the rules already work that way is simply not true.To me, RAW, the feat works with two melee weapons that are thrown. This includes hatchets, tridents, or any melee weapon with the thrown trait.
Also, thieves do get Dex to damage with thrown melee weapons that have the appropriate traits (daggers and throwing knives). Aside from RAW, it's just cool. Thieves throwning daggers is classic fantasy. Shadowspawn from the Thieves World anthologies comes immediately to mind.
So, yeah, you throw one hatchet overhand, then the other hatchet underhand at your MAP. The target is off-guard for the second attack. You are now disarmed.
Yeah, I looked up the thrown trait, and its in there that it says that a the weapon becomes a ranged weapon when thrown. Y'all are correct.
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This was linked in an earlier post, but just to clear:The answer is no, a Weapon stops being a Melee Weapon the moment you decide to use it as a Thrown Weapon, period.
Any other interpretation opens several cans of worms with regard to several feats, runes, rune duplication effects, buff spells, and class features.
Where is there a rule that says that? There is not one. In fact, there are ranged weapons with the thrown trait, and melee weapons with the thrown trait. The classification of melee and ranged is right in the Core Rulebook.
Describe an interaction where this breaks something? Throwing weapons has never been that great. You need to specialize with feats, returning runes, etc. to make it work well.
Core Rulebook pg. 283 (4.0) You can throw this weapon as a ranged attack, and it is a ranged weapon when thrown. A thrown weapon adds your Strength modifier to damage just like a melee weapon does. When this trait appears on a melee weapon, it also includes the range increment. Ranged weapons with this trait use the range increment specified in the weapon’s Range entry.Source
Weapons
Aklys, Bladed Diabolo, Bola, Boomerang, Cane Pistol, Chakram, Chakri, Club, Combat Grapnel, Combat Lure, Corset Knife, Dagger, Dagger Pistol, Dart, Donchak, Filcher's Fork, Flying Talon, Hand Adze, Harpoon, Hatchet, Javelin, Juggling Club, Light Hammer, Mambele, Rope Dart, Rungu, Shuriken, Spear, Starknife, Stiletto Pen, Tamchal Chakram, Three Peaked Tree, Throwing Knife, Trident
The answer is no, a Weapon stops being a Melee Weapon the moment you decide to use it as a Thrown Weapon, period.
Any other interpretation opens several cans of worms with regard to several feats, runes, rune duplication effects, buff spells, and class features.
Where is there a rule that says that? There is not one. In fact, there are ranged weapons with the thrown trait, and melee weapons with the thrown trait. The classification of melee and ranged is right in the Core Rulebook.
Describe an interaction where this breaks something? Throwing weapons has never been that great. You need to specialize with feats, returning runes, etc. to make it work well.
Dual-Weapon Warrior provides:
Requirements You are wielding two melee weapons, each in a different hand.And
Requirements You are wielding two one-handed melee weapons, each in a different hand.Both of these have the same requirements as Twin Feint:
Requirements You are wielding two melee weapons, each in a different hand.In order to use them ranged you are required to take Dual Thrower
Whenever a dual-weapon warrior feat allows you to make a melee Strike, you can instead make a ranged Strike with a thrown weapon or a one-handed ranged weapon you are wielding.Emphasis mine.
Clearly when something calls out that it requires a melee weapon you are making a melee attack.
For the OP I would recommend Dual-Weapon Warrior for this build over Rogue. It'll take just as long to throw two things at once as if Twin-Feint was allowed, and you get two attacks with no/less MAP earlier.
Just to be clear, because I had to reread your post to make sure I understood, Dual-Thrower will make for an effective two weapon thrower build, but won't enable Twin Feint because Twin Feint is not a Dual Weapon Warrior feat. If it were added to the list of feats included in the archetype, then it would work with Dual-Thrower, and enable Twin Feint with thrown weapons.
At first when I read your post I thought you were saying it would work, but you're really just recommending the OP change their build.
Dip into Gunslinger instead of Rogue, get Pistol Twirl, and wield a Gauntlet Bow...
Dip into Gunslinger instead of Rogue, get Pistol Twirl, and wield a Gauntlet Bow...
I think the main reason the OP wants to feint is to get sneak attack. Going gunslinger would reduce the point of doing so. Like Feint is a nice little bonus, but it just causes flat-footed and there are tons of ways of doing that. The twin feint feat is nice in that you can make multiple attacks, and get the benefit of feint, so it's an action economy saver.
But if the OP isn't getting sneak attack, it's probably not that worth it to still use feint.
Look at Dual-Weapon Warrior Dedication if you want to use dual thrown weapons: the archetype lists the feats that work with it.
Hunted shot works with 2 thrown weapon, Shuriken and Chakri, as they are the only ones with reload 0: the others have a reload of - which isn't 0.
Twin Takedown isn't a feat you can use with Dual Thrower.
If you want to switch hit with ranger, take a single weapon Precision one with a Trident [str] or Starknife [dex]. A Thrower's Bandolier will allow you to have multiple weapons using a single set of runes.
Bottom line, not having specific ranger feats work with dual wielding ranged weapons doesn't meaningfully impact how good/bad they are as a whole. So to answer your last paragraph, neither feat works but that's doesn't mean throwing sucks, just that DUAL THROWING melee thrown weapon doesn't work with those ranger feats.