Freeing the elemental spirit bound to a golem

[Rouge Maducchio]

Greeting everyone.

My current character is a lvl 14 Nature Oracle. During the most recent gaming session she met a golem, inside which is presumably bound a fire elemental. I thought that the appropriate thing to do for a character with her background and personality, once learned how golems are crafted from one of her companions, would be to free the spirit trapped inside it. However, I couldn't find specific rules that may or may not enable such course of action, aside maybe from physically destroying the golem, but I was looking for a more refined method. Dispel magic doesn't appear suitable RAW. Break enchantment sounds better, but it would all come down to the binding being a "spell, curse, or effect", which I am not sure of; and if it can't dispelled by spell magic, BE would work only if the binding spell was 5th level or lower.

Any suggestions? My thanks.

[TxSam88]

So, nothing in the creation rules state that a golem has an elemental inside it, so you are 100% in the realms of GM fiat. So, Ask your GM

[Coidzor]

Is it an intelligent golem or a mindless one?

[Mysterious Stranger]

Golems are magically created automatons of great power. They stand apart from other constructs in the nature of their animating force—golems are granted their magical life via an elemental spirit, typically that of an earth elemental. The process of creating a golem binds the spirit to the artificial body, merging it with this specially prepared vessel and subjecting it to the will of the golem's creator.

The description of golems in the first bestiary does state it is animated by an elemental spirit. Normally it is an earth elemental instead of a fire elemental, but otherwise the OP was correct.

[Boomerang Nebula]

For some reason I thought Iron Golems contained fire elementals. I’m not sure if that is a carry over from D&D or I just made it up.

[TxSam88]

Mysterious Stranger wrote:

Golems are magically created automatons of great power. They stand apart from other constructs in the nature of their animating force—golems are granted their magical life via an elemental spirit, typically that of an earth elemental. The process of creating a golem binds the spirit to the artificial body, merging it with this specially prepared vessel and subjecting it to the will of the golem's creator.

The description of golems in the first bestiary does state it is animated by an elemental spirit. Normally it is an earth elemental instead of a fire elemental, but otherwise the OP was correct.

that must be all flavor text, the rules for golem construction require only spells and material items, not an elemental.

[Boomerang Nebula]

Or an elemental spirit is not a material thing and is therefore not listed as a material component.

[Senko]

Boomerang Nebula wrote:

Or an elemental spirit is not a material thing and is therefore not listed as a material component.

I know I"m not binding an elemental into a golem if the construction blue prints say its not required. Then again I"m a fan of the pratchett style words in the head.

[OmniMage]

Boomerang Nebula wrote:

For some reason I thought Iron Golems contained fire elementals. I’m not sure if that is a carry over from D&D or I just made it up.

Iron Golems are healed by fire. Maybe thats why you thought it had a fire elemental.

Anyways, I don't like that bit of lore that makes golem making require earth elementals. Feels like you are enslaving them. I don't suppose there are alternatives?

[Boomerang Nebula]

OmniMage wrote:

Boomerang Nebula wrote:

For some reason I thought Iron Golems contained fire elementals. I’m not sure if that is a carry over from D&D or I just made it up.

Iron Golems are healed by fire. Maybe thats why you thought it had a fire elemental.

Anyways, I don't like that bit of lore that makes golem making require earth elementals. Feels like you are enslaving them. I don't suppose there are alternatives?

That was probably the reason for the fire elemental idea.

It would be nice to have an alternative to elementals for strictly good-aligned heroic characters to construct golems. I suppose GMs could have waive and say it is elemental spirit from the plane of Earth but it doesn’t correspond to an actual sentient being.

[Senko]

Boomerang Nebula wrote:

OmniMage wrote:

Boomerang Nebula wrote:

For some reason I thought Iron Golems contained fire elementals. I’m not sure if that is a carry over from D&D or I just made it up.

Iron Golems are healed by fire. Maybe thats why you thought it had a fire elemental.

Anyways, I don't like that bit of lore that makes golem making require earth elementals. Feels like you are enslaving them. I don't suppose there are alternatives?

That was probably the reason for the fire elemental idea.

It would be nice to have an alternative to elementals for strictly good-aligned heroic characters to construct golems. I suppose GMs could have waive and say it is elemental spirit from the plane of Earth but it doesn’t correspond to an actual sentient being.

Or that could be what awakening is. The standard golem is just a bunch of materials animated by magic that does what you tell it, if you awaken it you bind an elemental into it and that's what the mind controlling it is.

[Azothath]

it is a descriptive 'element' from previous editions.
The game tried to avoid having the caster/creator involved in creating an intelligence thus substituted an existing creature to provide the animus or driving force (an old story trope and theme as 'creating life' was seen as heretical in some circles).
Freeing the spirit from a golem would essentially destroy the golem. There's no easy way outlined in existing RAW other than the (crazy) spell Disjunction (broken from inception in 3.5).
Soulbound does have a gem that can be destroyed.
With golems no item is given Hardness and Hit Points to target seperately. It is all one thing.
The original (film version) had a scroll with a holy writ that would animate the creature when placed in its mouth.
IF your GM decides to homebrew it, use a gem(as in soulbound) or a tiny reliquery/'spirit house' with a binding circle to contain the spirit.

[Mysterious Stranger]

TxSam88 wrote:

Mysterious Stranger wrote:

Golems are magically created automatons of great power. They stand apart from other constructs in the nature of their animating force—golems are granted their magical life via an elemental spirit, typically that of an earth elemental. The process of creating a golem binds the spirit to the artificial body, merging it with this specially prepared vessel and subjecting it to the will of the golem's creator.

The description of golems in the first bestiary does state it is animated by an elemental spirit. Normally it is an earth elemental instead of a fire elemental, but otherwise the OP was correct.

that must be all flavor text, the rules for golem construction require only spells and material items, not an elemental.

That was the first paragraph in the first bestiary describing what golems are. While the elemental spirit is not mentioned in the golem creation rules, that is how a golem is defined in Pathfinder. The rules for the craft skill do not explicitly state what raw materials are required, nor does the description of a longsword state it is metal. But most people will recognize that you need metal (or a special material that can be used in place of metal) to craft a longsword.

Another thing that supports the fact that golems are animated by an elemental spirit is that golems that have a chance of going berserk specifically state that the elemental spirit breaks free. That is part of the rules and cannot be considered flavor.

[Mysterious Stranger]

The default spirit is an earth elemental, but others can be used. It probably depends on the nature of the golem in question. I could easily see using a fire elemental for an iron golem.

Releasing the spirit may not be easy. Elementals are an outsider that means its soul and body are not separate. The only way to restore an outsider to life is to use limited wish, wish, miracle or true resurrection. If you destroy the golem and use one of the above spells it should do the trick, anything else is probably not going to be enough.

[OmniMage]

Well, I'd scrap the need to bind an elemental spirit bit if I were rewriting the rules. I'm quite fine with creating life using magic.

[Coidzor]

Another thing to note is that it never defines just what an "elemental spirit" actually is.

So it's not necessarily anything that would have had personhood before it was bound.

[Azothath]

Coidzor wrote:

Another thing to note is that it never defines just what an "elemental spirit" actually is.

So it's not necessarily anything that would have had personhood before it was bound.

as this is just background or setting information (not golarion specific) you have to refer to existing writings on magic and alchemy which describe such things and that the writers of yore likely read. It is all left to the Home Game GM to fill in.

You also have to remember the "devil scare" that hit the hobby early in its history. Bad guys got special names.

Within PF1 it's simply not defined and you have to leave it at that.

Elementals have all their ability scores and INT:4 thus are sentient creatures. One would have to assume that since "elemental spirits" are not referred to as unintelligent undead that they too are sentient (as their body and spirit are one) and likely just incorporeal elementals. I'll note that for incorporeal undead who possess a solid creature their 'body' disappears into the creature and then reappears when they exit or lose the possession. see the Possession Rules.
The Medium Class talks about spirits.

I think there's some published text about a elemental lord releasing bound elementals as he's not happy about humans repurposing his minions.

This isn't really a productive Advice topic for me as it falls right into Home Game territory. People are going to do what they think best at the time based on what they know, what fits their taste, and what they think serves their goals.

[Temperans]

The following is just my opinion.

First its important to define what a spirit is. Which in pathfinder has no direct definition but based on what various abilities do they is a common theme. The common theme of spirits in pathfinder is: Incorporeal ethereal undead bound to the material plane. Another common theme is that they have no CR, little to no way to interact with the material plane, and potentially astral in nature.

Mediums specifically call spirits an astral echo.
Shamans imply that nature spirits are just there constantly and seperate from elementals.
Spiritulist say that their spirit is a soul that left the river, whent to the ethereal plane, didn't become a ghost, and returned to the material plane.

In short, spirits are effectively free roaming huskless souls and/or astral echos of them.

******************

Golems based on that then do "bind an elemental spirit" but that is typically not an "elemental creature". There is no "elemental" trapped and therefore no "elemental" to rescue.

If there is, the specific construct will tell you were the elemental is.

******************

Iron golems are probably either Iron elemental spirits, generic spirits, or fire spirits if said elemental has fire powers.

[Senko]

Temperans wrote:

The following is just my opinion.

First its important to define what a spirit is. Which in pathfinder has no direct definition but based on what various abilities do they is a common theme. The common theme of spirits in pathfinder is: Incorporeal ethereal undead bound to the material plane. Another common theme is that they have no CR, little to no way to interact with the material plane, and potentially astral in nature.

Mediums specifically call spirits an astral echo.
Shamans imply that nature spirits are just there constantly and seperate from elementals.
Spiritulist say that their spirit is a soul that left the river, whent to the ethereal plane, didn't become a ghost, and returned to the material plane.

In short, spirits are effectively free roaming huskless souls and/or astral echos of them.

******************

Golems based on that then do "bind an elemental spirit" but that is typically not an "elemental creature". There is no "elemental" trapped and therefore no "elemental" to rescue.

If there is, the specific construct will tell you were the elemental is.

******************

Iron golems are probably either Iron elemental spirits, generic spirits, or fire spirits if said elemental has fire powers.

I need more sleep, I read that as "free roaming hustler spirits".