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Hurl at the Horizon does on of two things. If your Meapon Ikon is a thrown weapon, then the immanence increases its range by 10. Cool, cool. No problems here. If it's a melee weapon, though, it gives it Thrown 15. Well, okay. The issue is that it doesn't give it returning. Further, due to the fact that it's only a thrown weapon as the result of an immanence effect, there's no way for anything *else* to give it returning.
So, if you get this feat for a melee ikon, then the only way to make use of it is to throw your weapon ikon away and not get it back. As use cases go, that's... niche. We'll call it niche.
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Hurl at the Horizon does on of two things. If your Meapon Ikon is a thrown weapon, then the immanence increases its range by 10. Cool, cool. No problems here. If it's a melee weapon, though, it gives it Thrown 15. Well, okay. The issue is that it doesn't give it returning. Further, due to the fact that it's only a thrown weapon as the result of an immanence effect, there's no way for anything *else* to give it returning.
So, if you get this feat for a melee ikon, then the only way to make use of it is to throw your weapon ikon away and not get it back. As use cases go, that's... niche. We'll call it niche.
I wrote a hypothetical revision to this issue in the rules questions thread that I'll likely be submitting alongside my open feedback, included below.
Okay so I thought of a solution to this problem- give the feat a Transcendent Action:
Transcend: The Sky Answered [one action] Requirement: Your most recent action was a strike with a Thrown weapon. Effect: Providence united you with your weapon once, and continues to do so. Make a Thrown Weapon Strike against the same target as the preceding strike as your weapon swiftly flies back to your open hand. If the previous strike was a miss, the target is Flat-Footed to this attack. (Could potentially add in that it doesn't count MAP if the previous strike was a miss due to flavoring it as part of the same attack, but probably too strong) Your weapon returns to you, and you may Interact to Ready the weapon or choose to let it fall to the ground in your space.
This would help kill two birds with one stone: giving more low-level Weapon Transcend options, and adding a pseudo-returning effect. Plus, we already are going all in on Thor references so why not.
If the weapon ikon has the thrown trait while Immanence is in effect, can you not etch a Returning rune on it while it's in that state? The rune could then be dormant when your spark is elsewhere.
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If the weapon ikon has the thrown trait while Immanence is in effect, can you not etch a Returning rune on it while it's in that state? The rune could then be dormant when your spark is elsewhere.
Well, okay. Sure. At that point, though, you're still doing the thing where you're paying full price for something with availability limited by immanence effects.
That's left me with a number of other bizarre ideas, though. Like, could you use this to fit a rapier into a thrower's bandolier? it also led me to realize that one of the obvious use cases for Cutting Without Blade is that it finally (finally) allows you to play an exemplar based around alchemical bombs.
A throwers belt with the returning rune should work.
Thrower's Belt? What is this Thrower's Belt of which you speak?
A throwers belt with the returning rune should work.Thrower's Belt? What is this Thrower's Belt of which you speak?
The subject of a nine part forums miniseries after Treasure Vault came out.
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https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=2313A throwers belt with the returning rune should work.Thrower's Belt? What is this Thrower's Belt of which you speak?
Ah. The Throwers Bandolier. Right. That thing.
So, yes. You can use the Thrower's Bandolier as a way of making this work. Technically, the thing only has to be a throwing weapon when it goes in, rather than when it comes out, and you can fit any one-handed weapon of up to two bulk in it, if it has the thrown tag.
It's still a notable kludge, and kind of weird as far as the fiction goes... especially when "I call my weapon to my hand" is very much a thing that shows up in the inspiring literature.
I think some of the balancing factor might be that you could end up throwing a greatsword, maul, or greataxe.
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I think some of the balancing factor might be that you could end up throwing a greatsword, maul, or greataxe.
If they wanted to limit it to one-handed weapons, it would be easy enough to do that in the feat. This doesn't do that. Instead, it leads to a series of niggling questions (Does it work if you keep it as a thrown weapon while the rune is applied? Does it work if you put it in your Thrower's Bandolier?) and then either allows you to throw your greataxe and have it return with only a bit of additional hassle (assuming you figured out how to dodge this issue) or still lets you throw your axe but makes it a fundamentally bad idea to ever do so.
Like, it's your ikon... and it has your spark in it. Until you get that thing back into your hands, you can't use your weapon transcend, and your class features effectively turn off entirely until you can burn an action on Shift Immanence. "I can throw a greataxe" is cool and all... but it's not *that* cool.
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I played an exemplar with gleaming blade and hurl at the horizon with a throwing dagger ikon. It was...effective. To be fair, I did put a returning rune on it. That said, being a switch hitter out to 30ft with the same action economy worked very well.
I played at level 5. My to-hit was +14 and my damage with the weapon was 2d6+10 (+2 from ss, +4 from str, +4 from gb). If I didn't have to put a returning rune on that I could easily add a damage boosting rune, which would mean that it would be even stronger, which feels a bit too strong. Too strong, not because of the raw damage output, but due to the range versatility.
Flavor-wise it was really fun. I had imagined a really cool dagger weilder that had control over the trajectory of the daggers. But, then, one of my buddies brought up the image of Yondu and his whistle weapon. That is what stuck for the rest of the game.
...and how are you throwing them both together when one of them is two-handed? Making the thing thrown doesn't change that.
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I played an exemplar with gleaming blade and hurl at the horizon with a throwing dagger ikon. It was...effective. To be fair, I did put a returning rune on it. That said, being a switch hitter out to 30ft with the same action economy worked very well.
I played at level 5. My to-hit was +14 and my damage with the weapon was 2d6+10 (+2 from ss, +4 from str, +4 from gb). If I didn't have to put a returning rune on that I could easily add a damage boosting rune, which would mean that it would be even stronger, which feels a bit too strong. Too strong, not because of the raw damage output, but due to the range versatility.
Flavor-wise it was really fun. I had imagined a really cool dagger weilder that had control over the trajectory of the daggers. But, then, one of my buddies brought up the image of Yondu and his whistle weapon. That is what stuck for the rest of the game.
Level 5 as exemplar will always feel strong just because you’re over powered. Spirit striking coming in early means at lv 5. & 6, you passively have the same bonus damage as a giant barbarian, but without any draw backs regarding agile and ranged weapons (this is passive damage so not even factoring in transcendence). So if there’s a problem with hurl being too good i think its just because of that.
What hurl at the horizon did for your build is just like a worse version of the strong arm rogue feat. I appreciate you sharing your live play experience, for practical data i just don’t think hurl at the horizon is that strong when using just the range boosting effect.
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Oh, to be clear, I wasn't trying to make the argument that HatH is strong in and of itself. But, when looking for power creep, one needs to look at the most powerful build option.
Honestly, my throwing dagger build wasn't even the best build I could think of. HatH coupled with gb can allow for two attacks with a greatsword at 15ft.
(+14 to hit for 2d12+10) + (+12 to hit for 2d12+10)
Chakram
(+14 to hit for 2d8+10) + (+12 to hit for 2d8+10) at 30ft [though, no melee option]
I'm not claiming 'super op', I'm just pointing out the power.