Lore on reincarnation in the setting.

[Dagnew]

Many people were very kind to answer my previous questions about immortality in the setting, so I feel encouraged to ask something more...

I know about Tian Xia religion, about the Esoteric Tradition and the Sangpotshi philosophy, the Samsarans, the Lake of Mortal Reflections and the Manasaputras.

But I don't know how all this fit with what we know about the Afterlife in the setting... I guess anybody can enter the Lake of Mortal Reflections in the Boneyard, but, if you aren't a Samsaran or a Manu, you will be reborn without memories of your previous incarnation, won't you?

It that is so... how does the whole Karma thing work? Or how can you move towards enlightenment across incarnations? I mean, a Tian Xia person enters the lake, is reincarnated as somebody in Irrisen... or in Akiton... or in a planet in another galaxy... and since they no longer learn about Sangpotshi, they no longer care about purifying their Karma, and they may end becoming petitioners in some Outer Plane, merging with it, and being absorbed back into the Maelstrom, that eventually the soul back as a complete tabula rasa...

So it seems to me that, unless you are a Samsaran, or you somehow manage to get everything right in your present incarnation and become a demigod or a Manu or whatever is your goal... any progress you make is lost when you die...

And if so... wouldn't it be better to try to secure a good afterlife in an Upper Plane rather than reincarnate? I mean, you will eventually reset and start again as an unaligned soul in the Positive Energy Plane, but the same will happen if you reincarnate, except you may screw it really badly in your next reincarnation and end spending a million years in Abbadon...

Reincarnation-based religions work in our own work because most of them claim that, if you accumulate good Karma, then you will be reborn in a place that offers even better chances to learn the correct religion, so you will have a good chance to purify your Karma even more... Being reborn as a member of the right religion is considered more beneficial than being rich or healthy or socially privileged, so the better Karma you have, the better chances to keep improving it during the next cycle... Also, these real-world religions claim that everybody reincarnates, you have no other choice, so you may as well endeavour to get good Karma to get a good reincarnation...

But I haven't seen anything suggesting that's the case in the Pathfinder setting... so, am I missing something?

[QuidEst]

Pathfinder makes a distinction between soul and mind. Your memories (mind) might not carry over, but your soul does. That's where the changes and improvements can accumulate, and that could include a greater propensity towards pursuing enlightenment. There isn't really an indication that reincarnation is "spin the wheel and end up anywhere in the universe". Samsarans aren't generally carrying memories of other worlds, for example.

[Perpdepog]

It's also possible we'll be hearing more about how reincarnation works in the upcoming Tian Xia books, since samsarans are going to be a playable ancestry in them.

[Dagnew]

QuidEst wrote:

Pathfinder makes a distinction between soul and mind. Your memories (mind) might not carry over, but your soul does. That's where the changes and improvements can accumulate, and that could include a greater propensity towards pursuing enlightenment.

So, if you are say Lawful and religious, you will have a tendency to be so in you next life?

Still a dangerous gamble... you could be reborn in Cheliax, and end worshipping Asmodeus precisely because of your Lawful and religious tendencies...

QuidEst wrote:

There isn't really an indication that reincarnation is "spin the wheel and end up anywhere in the universe". Samsarans aren't generally carrying memories of other worlds, for example.

Yep, but Samsarans are special. They keep their memories, and are always reborn as Samsarans. We don't know what happens to the rest of the people who believe in reincarnation...

If people from Tian Xia get to be reborn in Tian Xia, that would make a difference... they would get the chance to receive the right kind of education and make the right choices (from a Sangpotshi point of view). It would be nice if they confirmed that reincarnating souls have some influence on where they will be born...

Perpdepog wrote:

It's also possible we'll be hearing more about how reincarnation works in the upcoming Tian Xia books, since samsarans are going to be a playable ancestry in them.

I hope so...

[Dagnew]

Dagnew wrote:

Reincarnation-based religions work in our own world because most of them claim that, if you accumulate good Karma, then you will be reborn in a place that offers even better chances to learn the correct religion, so you will have a good chance to purify your Karma even more... Being reborn as a member of the right...

Found a mistake I can't edit out... auto-correct hates me...

[QuidEst]

You're looking at it the wrong way, I think.

"Clearly cyclical reincarnation to reach enlightenment doesn't work, because you won't be reborn in the same area, or even planet, and nothing carries over, so you'll just end up falling off the path."

Cyclical reincarnation to achieve enlightenment is possible, so that means that you're probably reborn somewhere with access to compatible philosophies, and enough carries over that there's a point to it. Given memories don't carry over, it's carryover is probably through the soul. Paizo just hasn't gone into much detail.

Doylist hat, my guess is that the setting's soul stuff was designed from a certain perspective, and cyclical reincarnation was patched in.

Also worth noting that the "exit condition" of cyclical reincarnation isn't necessarily screwing up and getting a bad afterlife. Wicked mortal souls can end up reborn as rakshasas, and entering a cycle of hedonistic life and rebirth is a solid improvement over a lot of the planes.

[The Raven Black]

I mostly agree with QuidEst above. The key point IMO is that deities and the cosmos have a plan for you. You do not reincarnate at random, but where you're supposed to be.

Now, I do not remember if the followers of the reincarnation cycle also believe in the rest of the setting's afterlife / cycle of life and death as it is known in the Inner Sea.

Maybe they think Reincarnation is for everyone and the people in Avistan get it wrong. Or maybe they see the whole Reincarnation philosophy as something that allows you to have some say in how your soul travels through the cycle, precisely so that it does not end up stuck in a bad place.

[Tactical Drongo]

Considering that deities are known and their servants Wander the planes it is probably Safe to say that at least some of the more studied and magically supported people are aware of reincarnation and the 'classical' Afterlife and have probably insight of the interactions
What those might be is hard to tell and of course the psychopomps probably won't Tell just everybody the ins and Outs of the cycle of souls

[Dagnew]

It would all make more sense if it were confirmed that the Samsarans and similar races were a product of Manasaputra influence (as now, we only know that Twilight Pitris almost screwed the Samsarans, and the Manasaputra Kumaras had to intervene directly to save the Samsarans...).

Let say the Samsarans' souls are all disciples of the Manus who have advanced enough along the path of enlightenment that they have learned their own brand of spontaneous reincarnation (James Jacobs has confirmed that the Samsarans aren't reborn naturally... they suffer the effect of something similar to a spontaneous reincarnate spell every time they die, but they always come back as Samsarans, and they lose most of their memories)... then they could keep improving until becoming able to join the Manasaputras (I think the Samsarans wanted to become Manasaputras, at least at the beginning; becoming other kinds of lawful Outsiders was considered a failure, which the Twilight Pitris almost cause the Samsarans to fall into... Jame Jacob has confirmed that modern Samsarans have different goals now, though).

I think it would be easy to attribute the Esoteric Tradition and the Sangpotshi philosophy to Manasaputra influence; from the point of view of the Manasaputras, who have lived through several multiverses (even the Manus; many of them used to Twilight Pitris who failed the test to become Solar Pitris and were demonted back to basic Manu status) the time souls spend as petitioners or outsiders in the Outer Planes is ephemeral... everybody they meet has gone through the full cycle countless times during the Manasaputra's own lifetime... they have been Angels and Devils and Archons and Agathions and Demons and Fae and everything else... so the Manasaputras don't consider the next afterlife of mortals that important... they all have been everything and will be again, anyways...

BUT! What is important for the Manasaputras is that the mortals they are teaching either learn enough to take control of their own reincarnation process, Samsaran style, or they at least reincarnate back in the same world so they can keep teaching and influencing them...

The Manasaputras wouldn't care if the Multiverse's lifespan is shortened because of the people who choose reincarnation and never merge with the Outer Planes... yeah, the Maelstrom will swallow the Multiverse earlier... so what? It was going to happen anyway, the Manasaputras have gone through it many times... what they care is that more and more people escape the cycle and join them in the Positive Energy Plane, safely away from the cycle of creationg and destruction, until all the soul in the Multiverse become Manasaputras and live all together in the Positive Energy Plane...

If an explanation like that were given, then the system would make sense... but I am not even sure they will reintroduce the Manasaputras...

[Castilliano]

Note that most metaphysical specifics re: Golarion have gone undeveloped simply because they haven't impacted the larger stories being told. On a smaller scale, ertain scenarios might hint one direction while an NPC background elsewhere might contradict that. In this regard it resembles a comic book universe where everything's true that an author might wish to include.

Also, why commit to a specific worldview (as developers) when one might want to mix, match, delete, and expand for some greater narrative purpose later? I think this mindset also ties into why one of the first major components of Golarion was that prophecy doesn't apply any more. For a fantasy world, that's a major subtraction, yet it also prevents canonical prophecies from accumulating, inevitably bogging down canon. All futures are possible, with none beholden to previous canon (which is hard enough to track for ongoing situations!).

Anyway, I think the primary concept to absorb is that Paizo explicitly has not created Golarion as a prescriptive canon, but rather as a toolset. So not only is it normal for them to leave unanswered questions at the edges, Paizo encourages GMs to cut & paste freely, analogous to CRPG modding. If one were to question the developers, you'd get a broad range of answers (often framed as suggestions/opinions) that suit their own playstyles...at that given time for their own given stories.
And I say this as a GM who loves integrating as much published lore as possible to share with players as we tell our stories.

[The Raven Black]

Tactical Drongo wrote:

Considering that deities are known and their servants Wander the planes it is probably Safe to say that at least some of the more studied and magically supported people are aware of reincarnation and the 'classical' Afterlife and have probably insight of the interactions

What those might be is hard to tell and of course the psychopomps probably won't Tell just everybody the ins and Outs of the cycle of souls

I think it would be interesting, and maybe even wise, to consider that the view we usually hold of how the metaphysics of Golarion's setting work is merely the Avistani point of view, neither innately truer or falser than those held on other continents (or on other planets FWIW).

[magnuskn]

I wonder how Pathfinder Isekai anime would go...

[Tactical Drongo]

magnuskn wrote:

I wonder how Pathfinder Isekai anime would go...

Oh please not another isekai...

I would totally watch an pf Anime though

[Dagnew]

magnuskn wrote:

I wonder how Pathfinder Isekai anime would go...

Well, Earth exists in the Pathfinder setting; it's were the Osirion gods went after Nethys took over...

The reincarnator/isekai'ed person would probably be a nobody in Golarion... they wouldn't have any class levels, and, unlike typical isekai, where the people from the fantasy world usually are pathetically ignorant and need the reincarnator to explain them basic stuff (like how to boil water to purify it, how to make soap from oil or how to domesticate chickens to get their eggs...etc.), people in Golarion are quite smart and relatively advanced... I doubt any regular person could teach them anything important, unless the reincarnator were an engineer or something similar...

And even if the reincarnator were an engineer or doctor or scientist, they would have to compete with magic... too complex medical/surgical/pharmaceutical techniques would probably be seen as too impractical ("if it takes that much time and effort, why not just pay a cleric...?"), firearms would need to be MUCH better than a primitive arquebuss in order to compete with the power of monsters, spellcasters and people with class levels, other tech would need to be made cheap and easy to produce if it were to compete with magic...

I guess relatively cheap, simple to produce stuff like analogic radios, telegraphs, telephones, stoves, fans and washing machines could be produced cheaply and in great quantities, if you managed to create a source of electricity first... Electromagnetic, steam and explosion engines too could be of use...

But anyways... if you aren't an engineer or similar, forget about becoming important... you are just a curiosity at best...

EDIT: I think there was an isekai in which the protagonist doesn't have any special powers, but he is a handyman and locksmith, so he can make a living and eventually retrains as a rogue and joins a party as the guy in charge of fixing their equipment, opening locks and disabling traps.

[Tactical Drongo]

Dagnew wrote:

magnuskn wrote:

I wonder how Pathfinder Isekai anime would go...

Well, Earth exists in the Pathfinder setting

Oh right, there was the reverse isekai where players killed Rasputin

[keftiu]

I will say: most of the reincarnation-focused beliefs we've seen in the setting are associated with peoples and cultures from Tian Xia, where we're about to spend two Lost Omens books and a four-book Adventure Path.

Further insights will likely come Soon.

[PossibleCabbage]

I will say that they're unlikely to drill down too deep on "what exactly happens to you when you die, and why" because getting players to think about "how to I make sure my character reincarnates" is the sort of gamesmanship they want to avoid.

Suffice to say the way this works on the "Pharasma's bureaucracy" level of things is that everybody who dies finds their soul in the boneyard. Some of them get judged and move on to an outer plane, some of them never leave the boneyard, some of them get sent back, some of them wait around for eons and then the first or the third thing happens. Pharasma never explains why any of this takes place.

[Dagnew]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

I will say that they're unlikely to drill down too deep on "what exactly happens to you when you die, and why" because getting players to think about "how to I make sure my character reincarnates" is the sort of gamesmanship they want to avoid.

Why? The players already know their characters' behaviour and faith influences which afterlife they are going the end into, and that's no problem... Knowing they have the option of joining a religion or philosophy and reincarnate without passing through the Outer Planes would change nothing...

Unless you are speaking of giving the players a way to reincarnate with their full memories, skills and powers... I think that is really advanced stuff that would require you to train during decades under a guru... it would be a fine long-term goal for a PC, but not something that would happen during play...

[PossibleCabbage]

The game is supposed to be about "what you do while you're alive". It's not supposed to be a setup for "what happens after you die, at which point you become more powerful." You can tell that story, but Paizo's specifically not interested in telling it, and they've said as much.