Guess I'll try here since it looks like the proper place to ask.
The Steam Knight feat has picked my interest as a cool choice for a future character I plan to play later this year, but it has also risen a few questions.
One of the effects of the feat is that it allows you to leap up to your speed and do some damage when you leap above an enemy and end your movement close to it. My issue is that it is impossible to do this if you start from the ground, at least with how my group has been running the Leap action until now, as moving through an enemy creature space is impossible unless stated.
As I understand it, you have to choose between a vertical Leap and an horizontal Leap, so gaining height and moving more than a square horizontally are not possible with a normal Leap.
Ruling leaps like this makes it so the Steam Knight feat requires 2 actions to go over an enemy and deal damage with your movement, wich I think is TBTBT.
So this made me question if we have been reading the Leap rules wrong in any way. Either that or that the feat is missing something like "You can leap up to your speed in any direction".
So, am I missing something, is the feat missing a few words here and there or is it just a bad option?
I think it's working as intended and you're right about how you have to use it to apply leap damage. (Unless you start higher from a wall, rooftop, flight, or Burning Jet jump on the previous turn.)
Steam Knight does about four things for you. The damage rider on the leap is just one of them and not the most important.
I think it's working as intended and you're right about how you have to use it to apply leap damage. (Unless you start higher from a wall, rooftop, flight, or Burning Jet jump on the previous turn.)
Steam Knight does about four things for you. The damage rider on the leap is just one of them and not the most important.
if that's the case, then it is mostly a downgrade compared to Thermal Nimbus, a feat that a water/fire Kineticist also gets access to 2 levels earlier.
Like, 10 status to speed is worthless by level 6 thanks to rank 2 Longstrider (can't remember the new name).
The mobilty is decent, but for the same action cost you can get the fire jet impulse that achieves the same (and it is usable outside an encounter).
The start of turn damage does comparable damage to Thermal Nimbus on a failure (not sure about how they fare once you factor in the fire aura junction, tho), but it is harder to include enemies in since you have no control before it goes off, requires Safe Elements and the push effect is going to move enemies outside of your aura a lot (again, relevant for the fire aura junction).
So I disagree, I think that the ability to weaponize movement is the main selling point of the feat, so it being bad makes the feat a lot worse than it should, hence why I believe this has to be TBTBT.
Yep, as it is written what I understand is that you can either jump ~40ft horizontally or go ~40 ft upwards, but without the ability to angle that jump in any way. That just feels wrong.I think this needs erratum? The stated "When you Leap, you can jump up to your Speed" does not really make sense for how the Leap action is written. The way other feats/abilities interact with Leap is much more clearly written.
If I was the GM, I'd treat it like the Jump spell.
The leap action limits leap distance vertically and horizontally where as this sets the leap to your speed so I assume you can move in a straight line on any direction.
I believe that's the intent of the feat as well, but it takes a few leaps to get there considering the original description of the action.
I think it's working as intended and you're right about how you have to use it to apply leap damage. (Unless you start higher from a wall, rooftop, flight, or Burning Jet jump on the previous turn.)
Steam Knight does about four things for you. The damage rider on the leap is just one of them and not the most important.
if that's the case, then it is mostly a downgrade compared to Thermal Nimbus, a feat that a water/fire Kineticist also gets access to 2 levels earlier.
Like, 10 status to speed is worthless by level 6 thanks to rank 2 Longstrider (can't remember the new name).
The mobilty is decent, but for the same action cost you can get the fire jet impulse that achieves the same (and it is usable outside an encounter).
The start of turn damage does comparable damage to Thermal Nimbus on a failure (not sure about how they fare once you factor in the fire aura junction, tho), but it is harder to include enemies in since you have no control before it goes off, requires Safe Elements and the push effect is going to move enemies outside of your aura a lot (again, relevant for the fire aura junction).
So I disagree, I think that the ability to weaponize movement is the main selling point of the feat, so it being bad makes the feat a lot worse than it should, hence why I believe this has to be TBTBT.
You don't have access, as a fire/water kineticist, to Tailwind unless you're also Air and spend a feat on Kinetic Activation or spend a couple of feats on spellcaster dedication.
As you note, Steam Knight has the potential to do more damage than Thermal Nimbus, at the cost of the consistency and the energy resistance. It also can do a push, which matters with the various hazardous terrain abilities (fire has one in Scorching Column) or for ledge/pit play. I agree that the need for Safe Elements is a downside.
Burning Jet impulse has less range (two actions for one 40' leap). This does that better, plus damage, plus move boost, plus push, plus you can leap three times. For a normal 25' speed class you're getting 105' of leaping for three actions or 70' for two actions, and doing some damage along the way if you do up and then out.
I think it's reasonable for a GM to decide that a leap can arc over a medium/small creature near you if you have a lot of bonus movement to reach him and then land past him, but it's going to be his call. Like if you had a 40' move and the target was 10' away from you, I'd let you leap 10' past him and apply the damage. Less movement or worse placement? I start to doubt the parabolas in my head.
I think this needs erratum? The stated "When you Leap, you can jump up to your Speed" does not really make sense for how the Leap action is written. The way other feats/abilities interact with Leap is much more clearly written.
Huh? A single action leap only lets you jump 10/15 horizontally or 3/5' vertically. This lets you do your full speed horizontally (bypassing hazardous or difficult terrain) or straight up (moving up cliffs/walls or on to high ledges). What's unclear about this?
Stuff
You can access Tailwind (thanks for the reminder) like anyone else can, through a wand and TMA.
As you are reading it, it doesn't matter that Burning Jet travels less distance, a level 1 and a level 4 feat compared to needing 2 specific elements, a level 4 and a level 6 feats are worlds aparts as far as cost are concerned.
And as I said before, the biggest danger of the AoE damage component is not even the save, but when it is applied. Thermal Nimbus allows you to move in order to apply it. If no one is inside your aura at the beginning of your turn, Steam Knight does nothing.
Honestly I don't understand how you see no issues in a character being able to travel half a battlefield in an action both vertically and horizontally with a blast of steam but not being able to angle that blast to go in a 45 angle degree. Specially when an impulse 5 levels lower from one of the elements that stance belongs to allows you to do exactly that.
How many Pathfinder players does it take to jump over a puddle?
I took it to mean that if you have a speed of 25 feet. You can jump anywhere within 25 feet of your starting position (think of a globe; height AND length).
If you had a speed of 60 feet instead, you could Leap 60 feet straight up, or 60 feet to your left.
I very much would like for a lava leap + steam knight character to be able to jump directly over an adjacent enemy and land on the other side.
I very much would like for a lava leap + steam knight character to be able to jump directly over an adjacent enemy and land on the other side.
I might be missing something, but what stops you? Even with the strictest read, you can jump over a creature with Steam Knight [a jump doesn't immediately end in a fall so even if you go with only 3' over, you can jump again to land on the other side] and Lava Leap can jump 5' to the adjacent square to activate.
I very much would like for a lava leap + steam knight character to be able to jump directly over an adjacent enemy and land on the other side.I might be missing something, but what stops you? Even with the strictest read, you can jump over a creature with Steam Knight [a jump doesn't immediately end in a fall so even if you go with only 3' over, you can jump again to land on the other side] and Lava Leap can jump 5' to the adjacent square to activate.
Well, normally the leap action lets you get like 8' up on a critical success to high jump (13' with a skill feat.) The Kineticist is using special rocket powered jumps though.
It's easy enough to figure out how far horizontally a fleet nimble elf with steam knight and lava leap travels (you land 50' away from where you started) but how do we figure how high you got?
I very much would like for a lava leap + steam knight character to be able to jump directly over an adjacent enemy and land on the other side.I might be missing something, but what stops you? Even with the strictest read, you can jump over a creature with Steam Knight [a jump doesn't immediately end in a fall so even if you go with only 3' over, you can jump again to land on the other side] and Lava Leap can jump 5' to the adjacent square to activate.Well, normally the leap action lets you get like 8' up on a critical success to high jump (13' with a skill action.) The Kineticist is using special rocket powered jumps though.
It's easy enough to figure out how far horizontally a fleet nimble elf with steam knight and lava leap travels (you land 50' away from where you started) but how do we figure how high you got?
Base without Athletics: If you Leap vertically, you can move up to 3 feet vertically and 5 feet horizontally onto an elevated surface. On a Critical Success athletics you increase the maximum vertical distance to 5 feet and maximum horizontal distance to 10 feet [which clears a medium creature]. I think a magical ability that allows leaps up to your speed can match what you can do with the mundane skill.
On a Critical Success athletics you increase the maximum vertical distance to 5 feet and maximum horizontal distance to 10 feet [which clears a medium creature].
Whoa, hold up. I don't agree that a maximum vertical distance in the middle of that 10' feat you crossed means you clear a medium creature occupying the adjacent square. That's a definite no from me, dawg.
I mean, if your rocket powered jumps let you land 50' from where you started, I assume that you can jump higher than normal too.
On a Critical Success athletics you increase the maximum vertical distance to 5 feet and maximum horizontal distance to 10 feet [which clears a medium creature].Whoa, hold up. I don't agree that a maximum vertical distance in the middle of that 10' feat you crossed means you clear a medium creature occupying the adjacent square. That's a definite no from me, dawg.
No matter their actual height, Size, Space, and Reach, Core Rulebook pg. 473, tells us that EVERY small and medium creature takes up 1 5' cube. As such, 5' is enough to get over one and nothing in game makes you figure out a parabola: case in point, just look at the areas of spells/effects and note the blockiness: a fireball isn't a ball and a jump isn't a parabola. I see nothing to make me think that 3d moment isn't treated the same as 2d, and if an ability said I moved forward 1 square and 2 squares to the left it's be in an L shape and no a parabola or a straight line. As such, it looks perfectly correct to me.
At the very least, they probably anticipated this combo considering the intricacies of the class. Makes sense to me. Are the numbers particularly good on it anyways? I figured you could trigger fire's aura junction twice but considering the action cost, is it worth it?
You can only trigger steam knight damage (and the accompanying fire aura weakness on top of it) once per round, no matter how many jumps you do on top of the free aura blast option at the beginning of the turn.
It's good because it gives you mobility (speed boost, and full move jump out or up as many as three times can take you places), and can damage on the move, and can damage in an AOE on the beginning of your turn and add on a 5' push. Other impulses give damage while moving (Ash Strider, Lightning Dash, Lava Leap), or enhanced mobility (the fire jump does a worse leap, and air does flight), or AOE damage (Thermal Nimbus), or AOE push plus damage (Call the Hurricane), but Steam Knight does them all to less or sometimes greater effect.
If you only care about one of these effects there's usually a better single option. If you want more than one Steam Knight is strong.