Hello,
I'd like to play a mutagenist in an upcoming campaign, where the healing output is rather low (5-man party and the only healing source would be the redeemer).
So I'd like to carry a bit of this burden, even if I know other classes (and even other subclasses) would be more suited to it. I really want to give the mutagenist a try this time ^^
I've read most guides floating around, but I'm still a bit confused. Could you help me build a mutagenist, taking into account that:
- We start at level 1 so the build has to be viable from the start (or at least from lvl 3 onward)
- I really want to give full-blown mutagenist a try, not another class with alchemist dedication nor a chirurgeon or bomber
- I should be able to fill-in as another secondary healer, deal reasonable damage and survive reasonably well.
Here are some ideas I had but they're pretty jumbled:
- I need a free hand for battle medicine, so Bestial Mutagen would be best for battle
- Another option would be to take martial artists dedication and use Drakeheart mutagen. I'd be more tanky but would deal less damage.
- Healing bomb at level 4 could help in a pinch but if I understand correctly it will only matter at level 7 when I can get a moderate elixir of life with +2 additive.
- Medic dedication could help with my action economy (doctor's visitation) but then I have no other dedication
- Since I'm MAD, can I skip wisdom and count on assurance to carry me through legendary medicine ?
- Is the valet familiar mandatory for such a build ?
I second Shroudb on a one-handed reach weapon (Hobgoblin Breaching Pike is certainly the best choice) and how weak are Healing Bombs. But I disagree on the reagent cost of Elixirs of Life: Once at level 5 you should be able to get a few of them. Before that, you can use healing potions (adventures love to give you some of them at low level, so it's "freeish").
One solution to cover all your needs is to take a Familiar (anyway, there's no other useful feat at level 1) with Manual Dexterity and Independent to hand you Elixirs of Life every other rounds. You then just grab a Titanic Fury Mutagen. You won't tank much but you'll have 15ft of reach so you could stay behind the frontline, you'll also be able to heal at 10ft. And you'll be able to fulfill the damage dealing part and the healing part quite honorably.
I have a very similar build and it works wonder at low levels (I'm more damage oriented as I use a Guisarme, but the overall build is similar). If you want more details, just ask.
I second Shroudb on a one-handed reach weapon (Hobgoblin Breaching Pike is certainly the best choice) and how weak are Healing Bombs. But I disagree on the reagent cost of Elixirs of Life: Once at level 5 you should be able to get a few of them. Before that, you can use healing potions (adventures love to give you some of them at low level, so it's "freeish").
One solution to cover all your needs is to take a Familiar (anyway, there's no other useful feat at level 1) with Manual Dexterity and Independent to hand you Elixirs of Life every other rounds. You then just grab a Titanic Fury Mutagen. You won't tank much but you'll have 15ft of reach so you could stay behind the frontline, you'll also be able to heal at 10ft. And you'll be able to fulfill the damage dealing part and the healing part quite honorably.
I have a very similar build and it works wonder at low levels (I'm more damage oriented as I use a Guisarme, but the overall build is similar). If you want more details, just ask.
Thanks to both of you, that's pretty interesting.
I don't want to minmax too much and going into ancestral weapons (like the gnomish flickmace or the breaching pike) is doable but I'd rather do without if possible. Also, taking bestial mutagen eventually gives me a d12 deadly d10 weapon - no reach, true, but an insane damage difference in comparison with the d6 of the breaching pike.
So your guisarme build looks great - but then how do you deal with the lack of free hand, both for medicine tools and elixirs ?
Also, how does Manual Dexterity + Independant actually work ? Every odd turn he takes a potion in your bandolier and every even turn he feeds it to you ?
Hmnn. Mutagenist with healing as a secondary focus. Sure, why not?
I play a 9th level Mutagenist. That character uses Bestial Mutagen for Combat. He does just fine. If you do go with Bestial, I strongly recommend using a shield.
Great thing about Mutagenist: You can generally get by on 1 Batch a day for Combat. With Mutagenic Flashback 1 Batch can give you 4 uses of Bestial a day. That's decent. If your campaign is really combat-heavy, you might need to spend 2 Batches. That's 7 uses a day. If your GM is hitting you folks with more than 7 Encounters per day you may need to have a talk with them.
So, lets go with 1 Batch a day. If you take Alchemical Familiar at L1 (and SuperBidi is correct, there really isn't another choice for a Mutagenist) you can have 6 Batches a day to play with. You can make a couple of Minor Elixirs of Life for emergency in-battle healing to supplement your planned use of Battle Medicine.
Second level you can make some Soothing Tonics to supplement your out of combat healing.
Fourth level Healing Vapors becomes a thing.
As far as Healing Bomb goes, I'm not a fan.
Medic Archetype... well, it depends on how far into the healer role you want to go. Mutagenists can definitely spare the Class Feats to go with an Archetype... my guy went Martial Artist, for example.
Just a few thoughts.
Monk archetype (or martial artist) is an interesting thought, I'll look into it, thanks !
As for being durable, the Titanic Fury mutagen gives me -2 AC as well so it's kind of a wash - except that I would have reach which is nice, but then I'd get piddly damage. With no weapon specialization and no dps increase like sneak attack/rage/fighter accuracy, I'd deal something like 2d6+4 damage at lvl 10 which doesn't quite fit the "reasonable damage" part of the bill ^^
Going the monk route with Dragon Style would net me 2d10+4 damage with no drawback, so there's that. I would have 1 less accuracy and a bit less damage than with bestial mutagen, but with a much higer AC (lower will save, though).
I thought my durability with Bestial Mutagen would come from:
- Numbing tonic replenishable temp hp
- Soothing tonic fast healing
- Mistform elixir for the free concealment
- Shield block (that weapon mutagenists cannot use if they want a free hand)
- Battle Medicine if things go south
- Revivifying mutagen + juggernaut elixir if I really need to tank it out.
Isn't it enough already ? I don't plan on being a tank (we have a redeemer after all), just survive a couple hits if I'm being targeted.
Also, how does Manual Dexterity + Independant actually work ? Every odd turn he takes a potion in your bandolier and every even turn he feeds it to you ?
It gives it to you, not feed you (Familiars can't use items). So every 2 turns you have a free Elixir at hand. It's not that awesome at first glance. But when you consider that you can ready yourself for combat with both you and your Familiar having an Elixir at hand, you can now use many more of them (one per round during 3 rounds).
So your guisarme build looks great - but then how do you deal with the lack of free hand, both for medicine tools and elixirs ?
I just lose a hand on the grip when I want to move to a more support setup. As of now, I've been quite happy with the damage so I hadn't use this option. But it's nice to have it.
I'm thinking about switching to a Breaching Pike at some point, but I'll wait for that for my damage output to be based more on Elemental Runes and extra damage than on damage die.Also, taking bestial mutagen eventually gives me a d12 deadly d10 weapon - no reach, true, but an insane damage difference in comparison with the d6 of the breaching pike.
Definitely true, but you need to be level 11 for that. Before that, you are stuck with a laughable d6 at level 1-2 and d8 at level 3-7. That's just painful as hell for a character who will also have a lack of survivability.
Also, weapons can be used with more things: Weapon Siphon (awesome at low level), Energy Mutagen (before you get Fury Cocktail), Poison. All these things significantly increase your damage output. So there's really no reason to move to Bestial before 2 digit levels and feats like Flurry of Blows. That's why I don't like the Bestial Mutagenist much, it's a high level build (and I don't focus an entire build on levels 11+ as I play more often before level 10).
It gives it to you, not feed you (Familiars can't use items). So every 2 turns you have a free Elixir at hand.
Ooh, that's great ! I was looking at Valet but since it doesn't work with independant, this looks much better.
I just lose a hand on the grip when I want to move to a more support setup. As of now, I've been quite happy with the damage so I hadn't use this option. But it's nice to have it.
How did you get the guisarme though ? Through unconventional weaponry ? But then you're stuck with trained until lvl 13 ? Or is there another way to get a weapon not on your base list and keep up with your proficiency ?
So basically you start a fight with only one hand on your guisarme, you quaff all your potions, then you take an action to go two-handed and you hack away ? And if you need to heal or take another elixir, you lose another action to take a hand away, do your thing, then waste yet another action to put it back and be able to resume attacking ?
I'm not criticizing but trying to understand, because it looks pretty action-intensive to me.
Definitely true, but you need to be level 11 for that. Before that, you are stuck with a laughable d6 at level 1-2 and d8 at level 3-7. That's just painful as hell for a character who will also have a lack of survivability.
Actually at lvl 8 you're already 1d10 deadly d10, but I see your point. It's true that it's subpar before that ^^
Also, weapons can be used with more things: Weapon Siphon (awesome at low level), Energy Mutagen (before you get Fury Cocktail), Poison. All these things significantly increase your damage output. So there's really no reason to move to Bestial before 2 digit levels and feats like Flurry of Blows. That's why I don't like the Bestial Mutagenist much, it's a high level build (and I don't focus an entire build on levels 11+ as I play more often before level 10).
Good point !
the idea behind the weapon is that you can switch mutagens more easily as needed, since you also have Energy as an option when you dont want to sacrifice your AC, as a mutagenist you are more free than others to have a mix of mutagens since you can make 3 of any kind with a reagent as opposed to 2 of the same kind.also, you dont need to go for titanic, you can go for another Fury coctail that gives only -1ac and also gives some resistances to kinda help with defences.
Fair enough !
Like I said, one BIG advantage of bestial over all other mutagenists is wearing a shield and using shield block. Since we don't have much use for a reaction and probably aren't charismatic enough to intimidate/bon mot/whatever, raising a shield as a third action is both viable and negates the mutagen penalty while adding some DR.
for damage part, you'd still have your runes and such, and siphon, so you will be looking at something like 5d6+4 which while not great, it's not terrible.
How do you get 5d6+4 ? Or do you mean at lvl 20 ?
the problem with relying on too many consumables being active is the amount of actions needed to get all those active.
I agree, but with the collar of the spider and an independant familiar, it should go pretty fast if, like Superbidi said, you start the fight with an elixir in your hand.
Even if you take ALL elixirs in one fight, that would mean:
Round 1
- Drink Mistform
- Get familiar to give you numbing tonic and drink it
- Move and help your friends tank
Round 2
- Free action bestial mutagen through collar
- Attack twice or move and attack if needed
- Raise shield
(familiar takes soothing elixir or elixir of life if needed)
It's no more intensive than a magus having to enter cascade and even if it's a bit slower than a ranger with favored enemy or a thaumaturge, you only do it once and then you're set for the fight instead of having to lose an action on every opponent.
you can't delay the choker, you need to use it when you roll initiative.
Ah, good catch, didn't see it. In that case, moving forward is not a good idea ^^
for getting around the hands issue on a weapon based mutagenist, i personally am a big fan of grabbing Bastion archetype and then Nimble shield. This gives both an excellent reaction for when you don't have the actions to raise shield (as an example, every round you want to move), but also you can now hold and even drink potions with your shield hand..
Nimble shield looks awesome indeed, I'll think about adding it to the mix.
How did you get the guisarme though ?
Fighter Dedication, to get AoO at level 4 (with 15ft of reach with Titanic Fury Cocktail, I have a threatened area the size of a Fireball, so I do control the whole battlefield).
But then you're stuck with trained until lvl 13 ?
I'm planning to switch at level 7 (hence why I may end up with the Breaching Pike). In the meantime, I see no reason not to benefit from it.
So basically you start a fight with only one hand on your guisarme, you quaff all your potions
I don't quaff any potion, I start with both hands on my Guisarme and just hack my way through the enemies. I don't see any interesting potion to quaff during round 1 anyway.
And if you need to heal or take another elixir, you lose another action to take a hand away, do your thing, then waste yet another action to put it back and be able to resume attacking ?
You don't lose an action to take a hand away. So I can do my thing just fine. Getting back to combat position takes an action, but I also have an unarmed attack so I don't have to get my grip back on my Guisarme if I don't want to.
I'm not criticizing but trying to understand, because it looks pretty action-intensive to me.
I'm here to give you details, don't worry.