The Lancer Problem.

[Dragonhearthx]

The picture provided for the Lancer weapon doesn't make any sense. How are you supposed to hold it?

https://2e.aonprd.com/Weapons.aspx?ID=346

[Sorry if the link doesn't work, I don't know how to do these things]

[Tangorin]

Near the top of the picture.

[aobst128]

My issue with it is that it appears to hold 4 bolts but the damn thing is capacity 2.

[Dragonhearthx]

Tangorin wrote:

Near the top of the picture.

But it's a 2 handed weapon and that looks like 2 inches of material.

[Claxon]

That is a really terrible weapon. You're 100% better off carrying a spear and a backup bow. Reload 2 with capacity 2 means it's not even a capable ranged weapon in the first place.

[The Raven Black]

Dragonhearthx wrote:

The picture provided for the Lancer weapon doesn't make any sense. How are you supposed to hold it?

https://2e.aonprd.com/Weapons.aspx?ID=346

[Sorry if the link doesn't work, I don't know how to do these things]

I guess you first use the crossbows and the spear part is held similarly to a rifle. And when you have shot your bolts, you grip the spear part and use it normally.

[Lurker in Insomnia]

I think the artist just didn't get the direction and they didn't have time to have new art and layout. Shove the crossbow bits up a couple of feet and you have a silly, but fanta-feasable-sy weapon. Dumb, but in the same way spiked chains are dumb, so... Kind of cool.

Calling it a lancer is the bigger problem. Bolt-lance. Lance-bow. Springy McHoss-stab.

[aobst128]

Claxon wrote:

That is a really terrible weapon. You're 100% better off carrying a spear and a backup bow. Reload 2 with capacity 2 means it's not even a capable ranged weapon in the first place.

It's kinda nifty to be able to use triggerbrand salvo at reach even if you just get to do it twice. Although, it definitely should be capacity 4 in my opinion.

[Claxon]

aobst128 wrote:

Claxon wrote:

That is a really terrible weapon. You're 100% better off carrying a spear and a backup bow. Reload 2 with capacity 2 means it's not even a capable ranged weapon in the first place.

It's kinda nifty to be able to use triggerbrand salvo at reach even if you just get to do it twice. Although, it definitely should be capacity 4 in my opinion.

I guess so, but outside of having reach the weapon has nothing else going for it. And the reach aspect is really only important if your enemy has AoO (which isn't super common).

[Lurker in Insomnia]

As much as I'm pretty forgiving about silly RPG weapons, Capacity 2 is the most reasonable. Crossbows in parallel are fine. Crossbowsike that, perpendicular to each other, that is just getting in its own way.

Reload 2 is likely a mistake though.

[aobst128]

Claxon wrote:

aobst128 wrote:

Claxon wrote:

That is a really terrible weapon. You're 100% better off carrying a spear and a backup bow. Reload 2 with capacity 2 means it's not even a capable ranged weapon in the first place.

It's kinda nifty to be able to use triggerbrand salvo at reach even if you just get to do it twice. Although, it definitely should be capacity 4 in my opinion.

I guess so, but outside of having reach the weapon has nothing else going for it. And the reach aspect is really only important if your enemy has AoO (which isn't super common).

Reach assists with staying out of reach of medium and smaller enemies as well as just having a bigger threat range for close quarters by saving stride actions for grouped up enemies. Plus, flanking is easier. It's one of the best traits to have really.

[MEATSHED]

The reach on it is a lot worse due to basically being two one handed weapons slapped together stat wise (which is more an issue with combination weapons in general).

[25speedforseaweedleshy]

have no idea how it should work base on picture too

is the bow and bolt pointing at the wrong direction

[aobst128]

MEATSHED wrote:

The reach on it is a lot worse due to basically being two one handed weapons slapped together stat wise (which is more an issue with combination weapons in general).

Honestly, I expected a reach combo weapon to be more like the longspear with a d8 since either mode on combo weapons are around simple weapon tier but not for the lancer. Pretty disappointed in it.

[arcady]

This is a common problem with fantasy and SciFi weapons - designs that are not actually practical to use.

That weapon looks like the crossbows down near the handle portion are in the way of actually holding it.

IF this was mounted onto a holder on a horse then sure. But not as a held weapon.

Remind me a lot of the Klingon bat'leth weapon that is so popular in trek - that has no leverage to take advantage of force multiplication and is held awkwardly meaning it's actually got less force to it than a barehanded fist.

Half the weapons and armor in MMO video games have problems like this too. Lots of pointy things to snag on, or giant shoulder pads to block your mobility, line of sight, and get snagged on, and so on.

It's why when you look at real weapons - most of them are very boring looking. Because they're designed to just... work.

[Dragonhearthx]

Lurker in Insomnia wrote:

As much as I'm pretty forgiving about silly RPG weapons, Capacity 2 is the most reasonable. Crossbows in parallel are fine. Crossbowsike that, perpendicular to each other, that is just getting in its own way.

Reload 2 is likely a mistake though.

Probably not, if it means you are fully loaded. Meaning you have 2 shots ready. Otherwise yeah I agree.

[Squiggit]

Claxon wrote:

That is a really terrible weapon. You're 100% better off carrying a spear and a backup bow. Reload 2 with capacity 2 means it's not even a capable ranged weapon in the first place.

That's the design niche of combination weapons. They're intentionally horrible.

[aobst128]

Squiggit wrote:

Claxon wrote:

That is a really terrible weapon. You're 100% better off carrying a spear and a backup bow. Reload 2 with capacity 2 means it's not even a capable ranged weapon in the first place.

That's the design niche of combination weapons. They're intentionally horrible.

The lancer in particular along with the black powder knuckle dusters are notably bad among the rest though. A few at least have some niches to fit.

[3-Body Problem]

Why not just mount a long spike bayonet to a crossbow?

[Dubious Scholar]

Squiggit wrote:

Claxon wrote:

That is a really terrible weapon. You're 100% better off carrying a spear and a backup bow. Reload 2 with capacity 2 means it's not even a capable ranged weapon in the first place.

That's the design niche of combination weapons. They're intentionally horrible.

Some of them are decent. Triggerbrand is actually respectable, since the 1h sword mode is 1d6 finesse still, you're just getting a free built-in backup weapon and Critical Fusion.

[aobst128]

Dubious Scholar wrote:

Squiggit wrote:

Claxon wrote:

That is a really terrible weapon. You're 100% better off carrying a spear and a backup bow. Reload 2 with capacity 2 means it's not even a capable ranged weapon in the first place.

That's the design niche of combination weapons. They're intentionally horrible.

Some of them are decent. Triggerbrand is actually respectable, since the 1h sword mode is 1d6 finesse still, you're just getting a free built-in backup weapon and Critical Fusion.

Not to mention triggerbrand salvo at 12th level for multiclass purposes. Salvages most of the combo weapons at that point. Especially for thaums with a triggerbrand. Adding weapon intensify nets you a +4 on that fatal firearm strike.