Wrist items for multi armed cohort

[bardliam]

In a high-level Evil game, my cohort is a Marilith. Since she has 6 arms, can she wear more than one set of 'wrist' items, like Longarm Vambraces and say, Bracers of Armor?

[Melkiador]

My guess is no, since humans have 10 fingers and 10 toes, but can only wear 2 rings.

[Claxon]

You're already way off in house rule territory since your GM is letting you have a cohort (generally speaking most groups ban it because it incredibly imbalanced unless everyone has a cohort, and then it's just more work for the GM) and allowing that cohort to be a Marilith.

Ask your GM is the only acceptable answer here.

I've always run things as everyone has access to same magic item slots regardless of anatomy.

But I also wouldn't ever let you have a cohort, and especially not a marilith.

[Azothath]

bardliam wrote:

In a high-level Evil game, my cohort is a Marilith. Since she has 6 arms,. ..

she's an Evil Outsider with a humanoid(hands) shape so she'd get the standard magic item body slots. As she's a Home Game custom thing ask your GM for any changes. He will have to check to see if he wants to give you two extra wrist slots.

consult PFS FAQs to see what they did for slots and such for many creatures along with magic item use.

[Azothath]

(PFS) Animal Int, Feats, MI Body Slots etc FAQs 2017-2018

Marlith Demon CR 17

Multiweapon Mastery Univ Monster Rules which the Marlith has. Notice nothing about Extra Item Slot (feat) for non-human forms.

- other sundry FAQs -

Multiple Weapons: Multiple Weapons, Extra Attacks, and Two-Weapon Fighting: If I have extra attacks from a high BAB, can I make attacks with different weapons and not incur a two-weapon fighting penalty? - CRB FAQ

Armor Spikes: Can I use two-weapon fighting to make an "off-hand" attack with my armor spikes in the same round I use a two-handed weapon? - CRB FAQ

Two-Weapon Fighting: If you use this on your turn to attack with two weapons, do you also take that penalty on attacks of opportunity made before the start of your next turn? & Unarmed Strike - CRB FAQ

Alchemist, Tentacle/Vestigial Arm: What does "extra attacks" mean for these discoveries? (Two-Weapon Fighting) - UltMag FAQ

[Azothath]

Melkiador wrote:

My guess is no, since humans have 10 fingers and 10 toes, but can only wear 2 rings.

patently untrue. as this is the Rules forum

Humans and other critters can wear 20 or 30+ rings, as many as will fit on their little fingers and toes and various other areas... how many magic items work and the order that they are donned is another matter. There is a similar attire option with the neck slot.
I've never experienced someone trying to wear two sets of armor as that seems impractical even with munchkin powers, LoL... (but RAW did cover it due to armored coats)

Advice:

whenever you play the multiple items in a slot game, try it out BEFORE YOU GO ADVENTURING (and be prepared to dodge some food items thrown by your friendly GM). You're GM will have to think about it and make a ruling that you can figure out through trial and error. Don't assume you know the rule and then get into trouble...
===end===

[Diego Rossi]

CRB wrote:

MAGIC ITEMS ON THE BODY

Many magic items need to be donned by a character who wants to employ them or benefit from their abilities. It’s possible for a creature with a humanoid-shaped body to wear as many as 15 magic items at the same time. However, each of those items must be worn on (or over) a particular part of the body, known
as a “slot.”
A humanoid-shaped body can be decked out in magic gear consisting of one item from each of the following groups, keyed to which slot on the body the item is worn.
Armor: suits of armor.
Belts: belts and girdles.
Body: robes and vestments.
Chest: mantles, shirts, and vests.
Eyes: eyes, glasses, and goggles.
Feet: boots, shoes, and slippers.
Hands: gauntlets and gloves.
Head: circlets, crowns, hats, helms, and masks.
Headband: headbands and phylacteries.
Neck: amulets, brooches, medallions, necklaces, periapts, and scarabs.
Ring (up to two): rings.
Shield: shields.
Shoulders: capes and cloaks.
Wrist: bracelets and bracers.
Of course, a character may carry or possess as many items of the same type as he wishes. However, additional items beyond those in the slots listed above have no effect. Some items can be worn or carried without taking up a slot on a character’s body. The description of an item indicates when an item has this property.

Azothath, the rules are clear, you can wear only two magic rings, you can carry more in a pouch, backpack, or whatever, but not wear them.

Same thing for the other items. You can carry as many as you want, but you are limited in the number of them that you can wear.
You can't wear 3 magic rings and say "The first two I donned are active."

[Azothath]

You might want to read the next line after your bolding to the end of the paragraph in the CRB and think about it some more, ... additional items .. in the slots listed... hmmmm... what could that mean?...

In my spoiler I give advice, it even says, 'Advice'. I probably used a spoiler for a reason...

[Diego Rossi]

Azothath wrote:

You might want to read the next line after your bolding to the end of the paragraph in the CRB and think about it some more, ... additional items .. in the slots listed... hmmmm... what could that mean?...

In my spoiler I give advice, it even says, 'Advice'. I probably used a spoiler for a reason...

And maybe you must meditate on what "beyond those in the slots listed above" means. Yes, you can wear a magical ring in your nose, but it won't use a body slot, so it follows the rules for items that don't use body slots: specially made with double cost and price.

In the slots, you are limited to the numbers listed.

[Azothath]

The CRB text and meaning is clear. I think your interpretation is wrong; logically, conversationally, and historically.

If you want to home rule it that way in your game, that's fine.

Trying to put words in my statements won't work as a distraction. I did try for some humor in my Advice to lighten the discussion. Saying I'm suggesting the items will work or need to be slotless to work is purely your addition.

[Derklord]

Azothath wrote:

Melkiador wrote:

My guess is no, since humans have 10 fingers and 10 toes, but can only wear 2 rings.

patently untrue. as this is the Rules forum

Humans and other critters can wear 20 or 30+ rings, as many as will fit on their little fingers and toes and various other areas...

"It’s possible for a creature with a humanoid-shaped body to wear as many as 15 magic items at the same time.
[...]
Ring (up to two)" CRB pg. 459

Either you blatantly ignored that Melkiador very clearly was talking about magic rings, which would make your post deliberately misleading and smartass in a most obnoxious way, or it is your post that's "patently untrue". The game explicitly says "as many as 15 magic items", that makes your claim of "can wear 20 or 30+ rings" objectvely false when talking about magic rings.

"Of course, a character may carry or possess as many items of the same type as he wishes. However, additional items beyond those in the slots listed above have no effect." ibid. See the wording used? It says "carry or possess", and does not use the word "wear" that is used for having magic items that 'count'.

Since this is, as you pointed out, the rules forum, and "wear" is a game term, the related rules make Melkiador's post using that game term to be correct, and yours wrong.

Azothath wrote:

You might want to read the next line after your bolding to the end of the paragraph in the CRB and think about it some more, ... additional items .. in the slots listed... hmmmm... what could that mean?...

What it means is wearing e.g. two amulets, i.e. multiple items in the same slot. It does not mention having more of the same slots with only some of them being active.

[Azothath]

it would be better to read the entire post and consider it before trying to respond to the particulars. As a long time poster many are familiar with your posts. (diplomacy... diplomacy...) My reply to Melkiador was teasing at best and why I included that disclaimer. Review the posting guidelines.

wear or worn is not exclusive in the way you propose or prevent other items from being worn, see Armored Coat. Wear/worn is used in context with armor and some attire but it is not physically limiting in the way you suggest. Nor do I propose the worn item MUST be magical - so stop attempting to make a point by adding to my statements and hypocritically railing about it... lol.
The goal of the magic item body slot rules is to limit the number of active magic items a creature has active in the game. Trying to stretch it beyond that is a disservice to the Game and simply promoting your Home Game opinion as RAW. It is clearly why I advised consulting your GM in my Advice spoiler.

[Azothath]

Comment

Melkiador wrote:

My guess is no, since humans have 10 fingers and 10 toes, but can only wear 2 rings.

my concern is you favorited a problematic capriciously negative poster and this signals to me that you don't understand the intent of my reply, so let me clear that up...

Since you mentioned 20 digits but only wearing two rings - on the face of it that is incorrect (as one would pedantically assume they are mundane{part of the joke}). I understand your helpful intent and I don't dispute that (I actually appreciate the effort) but I am teasing you about the technical aspect of your post. I tried to signal that with the comment and stayed within the pedantic interpretation.

[Chell Raighn]

You 100% can wear multiple magic items that take up the same item slot, but you can not gain benefit of more than one… with rings think of it this way… sure you can wear a magic ring on each finger, but only the ones on your ring fingers impart any magical effects on you, the rest lack sufficient access to the flow of magical energy within your body to function. And if you think “i’ll just wear multiple rings on my each ring finger them”… only the first ring functions… (note: this is not actually how it works, but this is a logical representation of rules for visualization, the actual rules are open ended on the exact world mechanics for why only 2 rings work.)

For creatures with extra arms, only their primary set of arms is capable of utilizing magic item slots unless the race has an ability that explicitly lets them access additional item slots..

[bardliam]

Claxon wrote:

You're already way off in house rule territory since your GM is letting you have a cohort (generally speaking most groups ban it because it incredibly imbalanced unless everyone has a cohort, and then it's just more work for the GM) and allowing that cohort to be a Marilith.

Ask your GM is the only acceptable answer here.

I've always run things as everyone has access to same magic item slots regardless of anatomy.

But I also wouldn't ever let you have a cohort, and especially not a marilith.

So, apparently you don't allow the the Leadership feat? Outsiders are allowed and considered the equivalent of a 17th level cohort. RAW.

Cohorts have been part of D&D Pathfinder since AD&D 1E. You want to short your players, go ahead.

[Diego Rossi]

bardliam wrote:

Cohorts have been part of D&D Pathfinder since AD&D 1E. You want to short your players, go ahead.

Pathfinder=/= AD&D 1E

In AD&D 1E you had followers or henchmen. You hadn't cohorts.

bardliam wrote:

Outsiders are allowed and considered the equivalent of a 17th level cohort. RAW.

Can you cite where you have found this "RAW"?

And what outsider is the equivalent of a 17th level cohort?
As we are speaking of demons in particular, a Dretch has a CR of 2, a Marilith a CR of 17, and a Balor a CR of 20. Do they all count as a 17th level cohort?

[bardliam]

Diego Rossi wrote:

bardliam wrote:

Cohorts have been part of D&D Pathfinder since AD&D 1E. You want to short your players, go ahead.

Pathfinder=/= AD&D 1E

In AD&D 1E you had followers or henchmen. You hadn't cohorts.

bardliam wrote:

Outsiders are allowed and considered the equivalent of a 17th level cohort. RAW.

Can you cite where you have found this "RAW"?

And what outsider is the equivalent of a 17th level cohort?
As we are speaking of demons in particular, a Dretch has a CR of 2, a Marilith a CR of 17, and a Balor a CR of 20. Do they all count as a 17th level cohort?

I was rewriting that bit and that should have said 'Marilith' is 17th level.

This is copied from D20pfsrd.com but it's from the Core Rulebook regarding the Leadership feat:

The planes are full of limitless possibilities, each being a separate reality of its own inhabited by creatures ranging from the puny to the powerful. Many outsider races are wholly alien from a mortal perspective, with little interest in the affairs of the Material Plane. Even within races generally unconcerned with such mundane matters, however, there may be individuals or clans of outsiders who feel a connection with the world the PCs call home, and who could be convinced to travel among heroes. Myths and literature are replete with tales of angels, demons, genies, and divine beings walking among mortals for the sake of curiosity or to forward a greater purpose. What starts as whimsy may grow into love and loyalty to the mortals they come to call friends. Alternatively, ambitious mortals might turn the tables on outsiders and inveigle them into outright bondage.

Many classes can temporarily summon extraplanar allies, but to actually treat with an extraplanar entity and bargain for its assistance requires calling magic. Planar ally spells allow mortal servants of the gods to implore their planar proxies for aid.

Favors for the faithful simply require an appropriate offering, as all parties involved are working for the same divine masters. There are divine heralds and servitors tailored to every religion, as well as supplemental summons suitable for each faith.

Planar binding is something different, a hostile entrapment that seeks to attract a creature from beyond, enticing and imprisoning it until its will is broken and its does as its captor commands. Spells like binding and trap the soul can be used as threats or punishments, but even without them, planar binding can compel servitude, or at least form a basis for negotiation with the leverage decidedly in the binder’s favor.

This includes an extensive list of the kinds of tangible goods and intangible offerings that outsiders of each type favor, as well as the typical goals and desires of such creatures.

[willuwontu]

Mariliths actually would count as a level 16 cohort if just using the bestiary entry, they only have 16 HD.

Quote:

Note that there are a number of effects and prerequisites that rely on a character’s level or Hit Dice. Such effects are always based on the total number of levels or Hit Dice a character possesses, not just those from one class.

[Java Man]

Considering that the Bestiary gives a Stonegiant an effective cohort level of 18, guessing a Marilith is not available in any close to RAW interpretation. (The above quoted rules for planar binding/ally havijg no bearing on cohorts).

[Name Violation]

willuwontu wrote:

Mariliths actually would count as a level 16 cohort if just using the bestiary entry, they only have 16 HD.

Quote:

Note that there are a number of effects and prerequisites that rely on a character’s level or Hit Dice. Such effects are always based on the total number of levels or Hit Dice a character possesses, not just those from one class.

hd isnt the only determining factor

all of these are listed as a 17th level cohort
Angel, Movanic Deva 12 hd CR 10
Einherji 13 hd CR 10
Daemon, Piscodaemon 11 hd CR 10
Asura, Upasunda 10 hd CR 9
Shedu 11hd CR 9
Valkyrie 16 hd CR 12
Viper Vine 20 hd CR 13

now look at
Demon, Marilith 16 hd CR 17

compairing to the cohorts available, i'd say a marilith is suitable for a cohort around level 23 or so

[Diego Rossi]

bardliam wrote:

Outsiders are allowed and considered the equivalent of a 17th level cohort. RAW.

Diego Rossi wrote:

Can you cite where you have found this "RAW"?

And what outsider is the equivalent of a 17th level cohort?
As we are speaking of demons in particular, a Dretch has a CR of 2, a Marilith a CR of 17, and a Balor a CR of 20. Do they all count as a 17th level cohort?

bardliam wrote:

I was rewriting that bit and that should have said 'Marilith' is 17th level.

This is copied from D20pfsrd.com but it's from the Core Rulebook regarding the Leadership feat:

The planes are full of limitless possibilities, ...

Facepalm

The piece you cite is about calling outsiders with Planar ally or Planar binding, it has nothing to do with the leadership feat. No idea why D20PFSRD had put it under leadership.

If you look at the list of creatures that can become Cohorts listed on the same page, a CR 10 Piscodaemon is an appropriate level 17 Cohort. Or a CR 12 Valkyrie. A CR 17 Marilith isn't even close to being in the possible range.

RAW the table stops at "25 or higher", so even if you play in a game going beyond level 20, the maximum level for a cohort is 17.

D20PFSRD is somewhat useful as it collates several sources on one page, so often you can find stuff there that would require check-in a lot of pages of Archives of Nethys, but, at the same time, it collates several sources, even third party, in one page, and sometimes there is unrelated stuff, like in this instance.

I think they put that section there as a role-playing option. You could conjure a more powerful outsider than what you can get as a cohort and try to convince him/her/it to become an ally, but he will never be a cohort and he would not be subject to the Leadership rules.

[willuwontu]

Does anyone know what book that quote is from? Because it's not in the CRB, any of the bestiaries, or Planar Adventures.

Located, Cohorts and Companions pg. 10.

Yeah, that quote is from a section that has to deal with the planar binding spells and their ilk. It has nothing to do with leadership.

[Tom Sampson]

Azothath wrote:

(PFS) Animal Int, Feats, MI Body Slots etc FAQs 2017-2018

That's a Pathfinder Society FAQ. Those are not useful for non-PFS play, as PFS does many things its own way. If the FAQ ruling was intended to affect Pathfinder in general, it would've been ruled under the appropriate Pathfinder FAQ rather than being left as a Pathfinder Society ruling.

Quote:

Marilith Demon CR 17

The Marilith demon does not have a humanoid body shape (it is explicitly described as snake-bodied, with a human female's torso and six arms), so there are no hard rules here. As such, ask your GM.

[Claxon]

bardliam wrote:

Claxon wrote:

You're already way off in house rule territory since your GM is letting you have a cohort (generally speaking most groups ban it because it incredibly imbalanced unless everyone has a cohort, and then it's just more work for the GM) and allowing that cohort to be a Marilith.

Ask your GM is the only acceptable answer here.

I've always run things as everyone has access to same magic item slots regardless of anatomy.

But I also wouldn't ever let you have a cohort, and especially not a marilith.

So, apparently you don't allow the the Leadership feat? Outsiders are allowed and considered the equivalent of a 17th level cohort. RAW.

Cohorts have been part of D&D Pathfinder since AD&D 1E. You want to short your players, go ahead.

I don't allow Leadership, and neither do most GMs because it's not a balanced feat. It's not shorting my players, in fact allowing it is actually shorting players who would rather not take the feat. But if not everyone has a cohort, then it's not really balanced. An extra character brings a lot to the table in terms of combat effectiveness and options that basically nothing else can compete with.