Anyone else find it weird that to take fighter archetype you have to have 14 str AND 14 dex? Especially when fighters are supposed to vary from the buff full plate hunk to the nimble and quick cross bow shooter
And champion. You have to have 14 str and 14 charisma. Charisma minimum makes sense, but strength?
I get the archetypical champion is a knight in shining armor but that doesn’t make sense for all champions
A champion of Sivanah or Bastet or The Lantern Kingdom isn’t going to be buff or wear noisy plate armor. No, they gonna be wearing leather and be dexterous and nimble.
Fighters should be changed to 14 dex OR 14 str, or perhaps 14 dex OR 14 str AND 14 con
Champion should be 14 dex OR 14 str AND 14 charisma
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I don't think the requirements need to be changed. Unless someone is intentionally trying to keep their unnecessary ability scores to an absolutely minimum (and hence 'gaming' the system), it seems reasonable that would-be fighters have mediocre stats in the two physical ability scores needed to HIT stuff, and for the champion... getting that heavy armor proficiency without enough strength to wear it is ... not smart.
If you feel really strongly about it, talk to your GM and see if they can relax the requirements rather than make your specific exemption a rule for everyone else to follow.
I don't think the requirements need to be changed. Unless someone is intentionally trying to keep their unnecessary ability scores to an absolutely minimum (and hence 'gaming' the system), it seems reasonable that would-be fighters have mediocre stats in the two physical ability scores needed to HIT stuff, and for the champion... getting that heavy armor proficiency without enough strength to wear it is ... not smart.
If you feel really strongly about it, talk to your GM and see if they can relax the requirements rather than make your specific exemption a rule for everyone else to follow.
I get that a lot of people take the archetype only for the heavy armor, but that isn’t the only reason someone would
Maybe my Eldritch trickster (cleric) rogue worships Bastet and wants to take the champion (liberator) archetype to show that
Or maybe my swashbuckler follows a god of freedom and wants to become a liberator champion and out the “liberte” in “vibe la liberte”
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I get that a lot of people take the archetype only for the heavy armor, but that isn’t the only reason someone would
Maybe my Eldritch trickster (cleric) rogue worships Bastet and wants to take the champion (liberator) archetype to show that
Or maybe my swashbuckler follows a god of freedom and wants to become a liberator champion and out the “liberte” in “vibe la liberte”
Sometimes playing against the grain of the game system has costs that have to be paid. It is up to you to decide if the sacrifice is worth the results you get. Hypothesizing justifications for a specific outcome does not change that what you are asking for is an exception to be made, and that should be on a one-to-one basis with your GM. As a sweeping rule change? Well, now that effects everyone. You will need a lot of convincing reasoning and thought behind why such a change should be made, and how doing so will effect the game for everyone else.
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It is mildly strange that the archetypes have restrictions on ability scores more than the actual class itself does. Classes only give a mandatory boost to their key ability score, that may end up being negated by an ancestry flaw. So a class could have a key ability score as low as 10, but the archetype requires a 14.
But that isn't particular to these two classes. Many of them have ability score requirements like that.
Also, it hasn't been causing a big problem for the last several years that the game has been being played.
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Anyone else find it weird that to take fighter archetype you have to have 14 str AND 14 dex? Especially when fighters are supposed to vary from the buff full plate hunk to the nimble and quick cross bow shooter
And champion. You have to have 14 str and 14 charisma. Charisma minimum makes sense, but strength?
I get the archetypical champion is a knight in shining armor but that doesn’t make sense for all champions
A champion of Sivanah or Bastet or The Lantern Kingdom isn’t going to be buff or wear noisy plate armor. No, they gonna be wearing leather and be dexterous and nimble.
Fighters should be changed to 14 dex OR 14 str, or perhaps 14 dex OR 14 str AND 14 con
Champion should be 14 dex OR 14 str AND 14 charisma
I have to agree that have 2 stats requirements was a bit strange for many MC dedication feats. I never saw a real mechanical reason for this.
I have to agree that have 2 stats requirements was a bit strange for many MC dedication feats. I never saw a real mechanical reason for this.
If I had to garner a guess, I'd lean towards it being a similar reason to why the designers of AD&D 2e required characters to have a certain total in an ability score in order to dual/multiclass. Whether or not that serves a measurable purpose in its requirement, I wonder if the designers wanted to make sure that if anyone took the dedication feats, they'd have a certain level of ability score bonus for future feats/abilities they gained that would require them.
That's just conjecture though.
Fighter and Champion are pretty strong archetypes, especially once you get past the initial dedication. But you can also get a lot of the pieces they offer through other channels. Particularly for fighter, which is a class devoid of flavor but chalk full of feats you can get through other archetypes.
Champion has more flavor, but if you're not in it for the armor I'd question why one of the other divine archetypes won't cover you.
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Tbh, I only find it weird that some archetypes have two stat requirements while others have only one; and I'm really not convinced that, say, monk or fighter dedication are just so much better overall than rogue or literally any caster to justify a harder entry requirement
Champion has more flavor, but if you're not in it for the armor I'd question why one of the other divine archetypes won't cover you.
The clause! It’s about the clause!
Vive la liberte, I want my rogue to become a divine guerilla rebel damnit!
Tbh, I only find it weird that some archetypes have two stat requirements while others have only one; and I'm really not convinced that, say, monk or fighter dedication are just so much better overall than rogue or literally any caster to justify a harder entry requirement
I don't know about Fighter, but Monk... Flurry of Blows is an incredible poach for almost any unarmed or natural weapon builds at level 10, especially with Stunning Fist. You might decide that it's not worth the price in feats, especially if you aren't FA or wont get far past lvl 10 on the character, but it's a meaningful boost, and you won't get it anywhere else.
Then take one of the other Divine Archetypes then? Chosen One is probably more fitting, though there's also Cleric and Oracle and Witch and Sorcerer for Divine stuff.
None of those have the liberator clause, and I would like to call my rogue a liberator
It’s not just the divine stuff, it’s about the Clause and also how liberator features plays into being a freedom fighter mechanically
Human multi-talented snagging Monk at 9 and flurry and movement speed at 10. Gets you in and out of monk in 2 levels with some great poached abilities
Human multi-talented ancestry at 9 can save you the level 2 class feat for the dedication. If you're a half-elf, you can even skip the str/dex requirements. Unfortunately, it's going to be more expensive than that to get something actually worth playing. If you want to use an ancestry-based attack, you're going to need to get into human via adopted ancestry, so now it's a level 1 general feat and a level 9 ancestry feat to pay for that level 2 class feat... and you still need to meet both sides of the stat requirements (..though in this case you can at least use the level 5 ability boosts to ease it a bit for you). If you want to use half-elf cheese... there's no way to be a human half-elf and also get an ancestry-based unarmed attack. Adoption isn't going to give you a tail. So in that case, you still need to at minimum buy a reasonable stance, and you're going to need to buy it with a level 12 class feat rather than the level 4 class feat you could have spent if you'd archetyped into monk the old-fashioned way, and if you want the expansion feat it's even worse.
Admittedly, the aforementioned is not *universally* true. It's an excellent pick for half-elven Animal Instinct barbarians.
I'm not entirely clear on how you propose to get both flurry and move speed at 10.
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Then take one of the other Divine Archetypes then? Chosen One is probably more fitting, though there's also Cleric and Oracle and Witch and Sorcerer for Divine stuff.None of those have the liberator clause, and I would like to call my rogue a liberator
It’s not just the divine stuff, it’s about the Clause and also how liberator features plays into being a freedom fighter mechanically
It is accurate that you wouldn't be able to take the Champion archetype and Liberator cause without meeting the prerequisites. So if what you are wanting is that Liberating Step reaction, then yes, the only way to get that is from the Champion Archetype.
But this also seems like you are getting too fixated on needing your character flavor to have mechanical rules backing it up.
There is nothing wrong with a Rogue character being called a liberator if they act like a liberator by, you know, liberating people - even if they don't have the Liberator Champion archetype.
And any and all characters can have a divine allegiance even if there are no mechanics behind it.
What isn't going to happen is that the game balance gets changed just for reasons of desired flavor options. Game rules and balance changes affect every table, not just yours.
I also think that you yourself are limiting your options more than a hypothetical overly-strict GM that you might be playing with is.
Personally I think champion archetype should be nerfed. It is insanely good. Heavy armor for one feat even if you are unarmored? Lay on Hands?
And unlimited champion reaction, which is their core feature.Fighter Archetype, very very underused, partly because of the stat spread and partly because the dedication is basically useless to other martials. Would love to see the stat spread changed to 16str or 16 dex maybe.
I don't think that champion is OP but the fighter that's underpowered specially after APGs martial archetypes. If you look other MC dedications mostly are very good. Bards allows to take many composition spells easily, alchemists gives you access to many alchemical itens with only a few feats, barbarians gives some extra rage damage to any martial class, ranger gives access to some the best per battle focus spells, rogues gives an additional precision damage dice, spellcasters archetypes gives you up to 2 spell per spell level until level 6 and 1 for each spell level 7 and 8, also if is a psychic gives you access to very good unique cantrips or if is witch a familiar too.
The problem is that's also many other archetypes that aren't so good like summoner, swashbuckler , magus and others. It's not like the champion that's is soo good but many MC archetypes that's more situation or less useful at all. Also remember that archetypes utility strongly depends from your build so compare them is naturally difficult. A wizard that fights from distance may not want half of champions benefits beyond heavy armor while a melee magus may want to take many archetype feats from it. Also champion dedication comes with anathemas and currently with alighment restriction too something that many others archetypes don't requires.
Maybe Paizo can rebalance some archetypes a little but I don't believe that's a current focus for a so optional mechanic.