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I have always read that as having the damage type chosen at the time of casting.
The choosing of the damage type is part of the spell effects description.
The spell is limited enough already without adding more restrictions to it.
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Prepare once, choose at time of casting. A small note, though, having both Chaotic and Good as options is dependent in being a cleric of a CG deity, not dependent on the cleric being CG. A CG cleric of an NG deity could only cast Good Divine Lance.
A small note, though, having both Chaotic and Good as options is dependent in being a cleric of a CG deity, not dependent on the cleric being CG. A CG cleric of an NG deity could only cast Good Divine Lance.
I only partially agree. I'll agree that it is RAW.
But it also doesn't make sense in a lot of cases and gets houseruled a lot.
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But it's your deity's magic, it's not really yours. To me it makes perfect sense for a cleric.
In the case of a oracle or witch using the spell divine lance, it would make sense to depend on the character's alignment though.
But mechanically breaking that apart is kind of weird.
But it's your deity's magic, it's not really yours. To me it makes perfect sense for a cleric.
In the case of a oracle or witch using the spell divine lance, it would make sense to depend on the character's alignment though.
But mechanically breaking that apart is kind of weird.
It makes sense to have it match the alignment of the source of the magical power.
For a Cleric, that would be the Deity written down on the character sheet.
For Oracle and Witch that would be the possibly obscure powerful creature or concept that is giving the power.
For Sorcerer and Summoner ...?
Really it should be left as a negotiation between the player of the character and the GM rather than being codified into the rules at all.
It doesn't explicitly say choose one alignment your deity has?
Maybe they just forgot to add the standard "requirement: you have a patron deity" that exists for some spells, feats and skill feats.
Yes. And it doesn't define 'your deity'. And since the only 'your deity' that is consistent for all characters is the one that you pick during character creation and has a field on the character sheet to write your choice of deity in - that is what it is presumably talking about.
Not the source of magical power for an atheistic Oracle or Sorcerer that follows Nethys.
It seems that societies on Golarion are henotheistic rather than polytheistic. <shrug>
Yeah, the one you pick during your character creation is your patron one.
The patron one ends up being the one that gives you your powers, if you are a cleric or a champion.
And you can change your deity the more the game proceeds ( depends the events) accordingly changing, if required, your alignment, font and similar.
I am not sure it's intended to be used by non cleric/champ characters ( that are both forced to follow that deity follower alignment).
Mmm hmm. And for the NG character that chooses to follow Pharasma and is a Sorcerer(Wyrmblessed(black)) and picked up Oracle archetype who gets their Oracle power from Iomedae and casts Divine Lance ... what damage type does it do? Does that change depending on if they cast it from their Oracle cantrips or their Sorcerer cantrips?
But anyway, I think this is a repeat discussion at this point.
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Oracles should be able to Divine Lance for all alignments because they are powered by multiple gods, IMO.
Yeah, the one you pick during your character creation is your patron one.
The patron one ends up being the one that gives you your powers, if you are a cleric or a champion.
And you can change your deity the more the game proceeds ( depends the events) accordingly changing, if required, your alignment, font and similar.
I am not sure it's intended to be used by non cleric/champ characters ( that are both forced to follow that deity follower alignment).
Mmm hmm. And for the NG character that chooses to follow Pharasma and is a Sorcerer(Wyrmblessed(black)) and picked up Oracle archetype who gets their Oracle power from Iomedae and casts Divine Lance ... what damage type does it do? Does that change depending on if they cast it from their Oracle cantrips or their Sorcerer cantrips?
But anyway, I think this is a repeat discussion at this point.
Trick question, they can't cast Divine Lance at all.
Trick question, they can't cast Divine Lance at all.
Exactly.
Like I said - it doesn't always make sense and is often houseruled.
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Since no one has bothered to quote the actual text: Attack, Cantrip, Evocation
Traditions divine
Cast somatic, verbal
Range 30 feet; Targets 1 creature
You unleash a beam of divine energy. Choose an alignment your deity has (chaotic, evil, good, or lawful). You can't cast this spell if you don't have a deity or if your deity is true neutral. Make a ranged spell attack roll against the target's AC. On a hit, the target takes damage of the chosen alignment type equal to 1d4 + your spellcasting ability modifier (double damage on a critical hit). The spell gains the trait of the alignment you chose.
Heightened (+1) The damage increases by 1d4.
RAW:
You can't cast the spell if you don't have a patron deity.You can't cast the spell if your patron deity is True Neutral.
If you do cast this spell, its damage type is one non-neutral alignment that your patron deity has.
As for the original question, it seems like you should choose the alignment (assuming your patron has two non-neutral alignments) at time of casting as it doesn't specifically state that you need to do this when 'preparing' the spell and the general default is making choices at the time of casting.
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"Have a diety" is not the same thing as "have a patron diety". A witch who worships Saranrae should be able to cast the spell, regardless of who or what the witch's patron is (provided the patron gives access to the divine spell list). A witch who worships Nethys would not be able to cast it.
I will humbly submit that weaponized neutrality is not something I want to exist. It may be the hero Golarion needs but it is only going to add another dimension to the incessant arguments about alignment. I can see it now: Neutral (as a synonym for undecided) deals Apathy damage, creatures with strong feelings about anything are immune to Apathy damage. Neutral creatures are weak to it. True Neutral (which is to say anything with firm opinions about why balance is superior) deals Outrage damage, creatures with any non-neutral alignment are weak to it. Now everybody gets something.
"Have a diety" is not the same thing as "have a patron diety". A witch who worships Saranrae should be able to cast the spell, regardless of who or what the witch's patron is (provided the patron gives access to the divine spell list). A witch who worships Nethys would not be able to cast it.
As a summary of how RAW works, you are correct.
As a statement of how you personally prefer to play your characters, that works fine.
As a general rule of how the game is supposed to be played, it prevents a lot of completely valid character concepts from having a cantrip that does meaningful amounts of damage. And for a pretty arbitrary reason. It isn't part of the class or feat build choices. It is just a personality choice. Write down a different deity in the box on the character sheet and the problem goes away. But playing a Bones Oracle who follows Pharasma - no cantrip for you. Feels bad.
What we can see is that:
1) Any character can worship a deity or not.
2) If the character is a Champion or a Cleric, they have to worship a deity
3) This, imo, means that the "so called deity" is the patron one.
We can also have an atheistic Undead bloodline Sorcerer and have no deity involved at all.
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We can also have an atheistic Undead bloodline Sorcerer and have no deity involved at all.
Though to be fair, at that point the character is definitely heading towards the 'you don't have a deity' clause in Divine Lance that explicitly says that the cantrip is not available.
For Sorcerers/Witches/Oracles I allow the "patron deity" to be different than the deity the character worships.
An Infernal Sorcerer could cast spells as if they worship a Lawful Evil deity, since it makes sense for their bloodline. The flavor of the Sorcerer class is they get their power involuntarily, so they don't necessarily have to worship Asmodeus, just pick a deity to be their "power source" for options like Divine Access.
I'm pretty sure this spell will be going away come November thanks to the removal of Alignment, or at least be completely re-written.
Best to not get too attached to it until then.
What’s happening in November?
What’s happening in November?
Go read today's Paizo Blog post.
tl;dr alignment is going away - probably for legal reasons with the OGL. We don't know how that will affect things like alignment damage or spells that reference such things. There may be a replacement that is nearly equivalent. Or they may rework all of the spells and classes.
What’s happening in November?Go read today's Paizo Blog post.
tl;dr alignment is going away - probably for legal reasons with the OGL. We don't know how that will affect things like alignment damage or spells that reference such things. There may be a replacement that is nearly equivalent. Or they may rework all of the spells and classes.
Hmm. I’ll reserve judgment until it happens, but I am in the camp of liking alignment so that could be disappointing. That said, I do agree with the overall idea of this thread regarding making Divine Lance better.