GM Advice: Making Incorporeal Combat Interesting?

[Kresblain the Merry Magician]

I am GMing my first campaign, an undead-heavy AP. As such, there are quite a few incorporeal enemies. I can usually justify a crazed undead flying out in the open and slugging it out with the party. But the fact that most of them have feats like Spring Attack, Flyby Attack and Blindfight suggests to me that they should be bouncing out of the floors and walls to attack. This sounds exciting, but in practice I find that it does not leave much agency for the players to make meaningful decisions and turns fights into a bit of a slog. Because the ghost is hiding in the floor outside of its turn, all the players can do is ready actions. Positioning is fairly inconsequential since they do not know where the creature is or where it will emerge; melee fighters will not even want to move since they need to retain their 5-foot step in hopes of reaching the creature.

When it gets back to the creature's turn, I can choose to attack from position A or position B, which determines which of the PC's readied attacks go off. Once all the attacks are resolved and the creature is back in the floor, all that is left for the players to do is declare "I ready again." It mechanically is not much different from a standard fight, but since it is my choice that determines which characters' actions go off and when, it can feel like I am playing both sides of the fight and the players are just observers.

What percentage of the time do your incorporeals usually spend hiding inside objects? How has your experience been with these encounters? Has limited player agency felt like a drag? Any suggestions to make more interesting fights?

Please note that I am not looking for advice on the best ways to defeat incorporeal creatures. I am after ideas for how to make encounters engaging and entertaining for a typical party.

[thorin001]

While incorporeals can be a bit of a slog, making it so that the PCs cannot just do their normal schtick does make for interesting combat. If they have already cracked the code on facing incorporeals then use them more sparingly. But definitely keep them around to keep the PCs on their toes.

The next thing is make them part of an ensemble cast. Try playing the ready game when there is a vampire spawn or two to break up the dance.

Or the incorporeals are scouts for the rest of the bad guys. They just do quick hit and runs and then report back to the boss. The boss can now coordinate minions to ambush the PCs or properly buff.

As far as who goes first in a readied action stand-off the simple thing is keep the initiative order. The critter that has the higher initiative goes first. If it has been more than a couple of rounds of staring at each other then treat it like a new encounter and re-roll and people start flat footed.

[Jhaeman]

As GM, I find the best way to avoid metagaming with PCs' readied actions in a situation like this is to roll randomly and publicly at the beginning of its turn each round about who the creature is going to attack. That way everyone knows its fair.

[Diego Rossi]

Note that Blind-fight doesn't allow the undead to know where the PCs are. It only allows them to reroll miss chances.

Several undeads have blindsense, so they can locate the PCs but still suffer from miss chances when attacking from within a wall, a few have blindsight and don't suffer from miss chances.

Spring attack works only with melee attacks. Several undead powers aren't melee attacks, so they can't be used together. And it protects from AoO from the target only, so his friends can do AoO.

All the above means that different incorporeal undead will use very different tactics and have different limits on what they can do. The players too have several tactics available, depending on level and abilities.

What I feel is really useful when playing that kind of combat is a detailed map of the area, possibly with a hidden copy for the GM to track the undead movement. Spring attack allow a single move as part of the attack, so the undead generally can't maneuver that much if they want to attack every round.

With the right players, it can be a lot of fun, but some players can find it very frustrating, so you need to know their possible reaction before choosing to play a lot of these kinds of scenarios.

[Azothath]

there are rules, there are ability scores, they have senses, and they're undead (not the brightest bunch).

So look at the creature's motivation, their ability scores and senses. That will give you an idea as to the range of their strategies/tactics. Any class levels?

Next look at the scene. What function does the monster fulfill? Is this a roadblock/trap, a challenge, or a dramatic moment?
Some creatures are exceptions, Ghosts and Spectres are there for drama.

Encounters should not be consecutive & immediate(no rest) combat-combat-combat (aka the meat grinder). Often PCs are exploring and can pace themselves. The flow should be discovery-plan-challenge(combat/skill/puzzle/other)-regroup with exploring inbetween and different challenges each time (only 2/3 combat at most).

Incorporeals (with training and direction) can attack while maintaining cover. They just gain 50% miss chance as they're "blind" to the targets. This is probably the "sneakiest" they can get. If there is a Lich/mastermind feeding them instructions (coordinating) it can get deadly.
Generally undead are just gonna follow anything living about and try to suck the life out of it.

it's important to remember that creatures who enter combat after it starts come in at the TOP of the initiative and do not interleave into the existing rolled initiative order. So creatures entering on round 2 start at the top of round 3 (or bottom of round 2).

[Azothath]

so there are 2 things you talked about; undead tactics, and player agency.

I've addressed undead tactics and strategy above.

Player agency is their ability to make choices, not the gamut of choices that you see they have. TBH most of their obvious effective choices stem from their class and abilities. The plot and storyline/backdrop often provide a few alternatives.
Part of that is their ability to prepare and retreat and reformulate. You as the GM with an AP have a plan and a mostly plotted script. The PCs are far more flexible in their actions.

Albeit most PCs charge ahead and try to power their way through. That can get them into trouble and a failing or poor strategy isn't your fault. You can try to guide them to better strategies using NPC examples.
Grab and Run is a good example of how normal low level NPCs can win against location bound undead. I'm sure you can come up with a few others.

Placing inobvious tokens on NPCs is another way. A NPC seems to luckily repel the ghost even though they are not a cleric (because the ring they wear is the ghost's former wife's wedding ring). Will the PC's steal it or learn its background? A ghoul might not attack its former sibling (a setting/plot defense) or leave them until last. Similar things like that. You need to turn the discovery into finding out about the current situation in the AP. Old books are a classic way to introduce background info. Again, trying to get them to prepare and be involved in the storyline, that how you give them options or agency.

One of the most underdeveloped things is discovery DCs. As a GM you read the story and there's all this back story. Then there's no chart or table for the PCs to discover any of that. The PCs enter the dungeon clueless. REALLY. It's just lazy writing. You need to read it, taken notes, then form up Info Points where PCs can discover some of it (but not all!) through investigation, talking to NPCs, identifying items, figuring out possible motives. You need to engage skill ranks rather than ignore them for only combat or crafting uses.
You also need a way to motivate the PCs in case they sit around rather than act.

[Mark Hoover 330]

Incorporeal undead... the "underwater adventure" of monster slaying. I say that b/c most PCs in a land-based game need to know and prepare for going aquatic in an adventure, and I find it's the same with incorporeal undead.

4 L1 PCs in a game involving Undead (incorporeal or not) should have Holy Water on them and someone that can cast Disrupt Undead at least. Does anyone in the party have Craft(ALchemy) or class abilities around this skill? After their first loot pile, PCs should have ghost salt weapon blanch or other anti-undead gear. Of course, players are going to forget these items are out there or not buy/craft them if they don't KNOW they need to have them.

Adding onto what Azothat was saying, it's on you as the GM to tell your players what to prep for in an upcoming adventure. Maybe don't go as blunt as "the mayor tells you that in the third cell from north to south of the dwarven ruin you'll find a shadow" but maybe don't be as subtle as "some say something vile resides in that chamber."

There's lots of ways to do this. Note: a rogue can somehow detect magic traps with an Area trigger; in essence, the rogue is making a Perception check to know that an open area is warded by some kind of negative spell effect. If they don't roll high enough for the rogue to detect some indication of what the spell does, all they know for certain is "area: bad b/c reasons."

Ok, well, if there's a mechanic around traps that can be that vague but still give the party pause, why not with incorporeal undead?

Say the PCs enter a tomb containing a wraith. Currently the creature is hiding inside a wall. Perception might let a PC get a sense of some kind of disturbance in the surface of the wall or a very faint ectoplasmic residue. Taking it a step further, Survival (Tracking) might allow a PC to trail such a creature; Knowledge (Religion) could reveal likely strategies for the undead and so on.

Those are all mechanics at the encounter level. Scaling back a bit, at the narrative level there can be a lot of ways to let players know what's coming so they can study the right spells and buy the right gear. Myths or legends learned from Diplomacy checks, Knowledge rolls and such can give an indication - tales suggest that furniture in the old Graverly House moves on its own and that otherworldly moans can be heard from the cellar... that kind of thing.

Haunts are a GREAT way to impart info, but this is a Hazard or Trap of some kind, another mechanic. Taking the danger out of it, what if there's just a psychic echo of past events in an area? PCs enter a spot and suddenly it's a night 30 years ago; they hear two men arguing, the prying open of a coffin, then a scream of terror from one and a terrible choking sound from the other. Suddenly the PCs are back to normal; no Wisdom damage, no saving throws, they just heard a person being slain by an undead. Later when they find skeletal remains with the windpipe of the humanoid crushed the players can put 2 and 2 together to understand what happened. Finally, when they encounter a ghost grasping it's throat and constantly gasping for air, the players might understand that simply blessing the bones or otherwise respectfully dealing with them may end this encounter without an hour of buff spells and half damage attacks.

[Diego Rossi]

Azothath wrote:

it's important to remember that creatures who enter combat after it starts come in at the TOP of the initiative and do not interleave into the existing rolled initiative order. So creatures entering on round 2 start at the top of round 3 (or bottom of round 2).

I have never seen this rule. Do you have a source?

When new opponents enter the fray I have them roll initiative and arrive (how they arrive depends on where they arrive and why they weren't in combat from the start) when the initiative count reaches that number.
A summoned creature acts at the initiative of the summoner, reinforces arriving from another room roll initiative the round before arriving and appears from the appropriate door (or wall if incorporeal), and so on.

[Hugo Rune]

Adding to what Mark Hoover said and fondly remembering early Gygax modules. Consider writing up a rumour table and having the players roleplay. This could be combined with gather information checks and other relevant skill checks. If they role high give the players a big clue rumour. Roll low and get a false rumour.