Spellstrike + Magical Trickster - Round 3

[roquepo]

It's been a while since this has been discussed, and some new bits have been thrown into the ecuation:

- Knockdown errata: What once readed like "if you strike, you apply the critical success effect of a Trip" was subject to errata in a way to make sure it is clear that you still make a trip in the process, triggering effects like Brutal Bully or The Harder they Fall. Not only the latter gets to apply sneak attack twice when rolling once, but the whole matter also sets a precedent for a similar case being in favor of the ruling.

- Triggerbrand Salvo. It has better Sneak Attack value than Spellstrike + Magical Trickster, while being usable every turn and costing just one action and a reload related action afterwards to reset it (like Triggerbrsnd Salvo + Running Reload), rendering the TGTBT argument a bit pointless. Note that combination weapons don't have exactly bad stats for Rogue Weapons and that you can get proficiency in them with Unconventional Weaponry.

What are your thoughts on this interaction in the year 2023? I personally don't really care about it working or not, I just want this discussed to increase the chance that this gets clarified once and for all once the eventual SoM errata hits.

[aobst128]

I'm on team yes probably. It's one attack roll but 2 attacks are in fact hitting at once. Same kind of concept as swipe or penetrating shot. 2 attacks are landing that are both subject to sneak attack even if you're only rolling once.

[Guntermench]

I also lean yes. It's only "problematic" in dual class...but at that point you're playing dual class and everything can end up problematic.

[25speedforseaweedleshy]

dual class of two martial can be pretty strong

improve knockdown should trigger the harder they fall

Stab and Blast and triggerbrand salvo are pretty amazing for rogue if they can get it

but both require the first attack to hit

that is a extra risk can not be avoided by true strike spellstrike

rogue can get stab and blast without dual class at level 16 anyway

mobility also help rogue to get away with running reload

[roquepo]

Did not mention Stab and Blast because it is awkward from a Rogue perpective. Needing 2 different proficiencies is hard on them and the big reason the feat was not discussed much when it was printed as a good combo feat for the class.

The part about needing the first one to hit is inconvenient indeed, but it is only really notable on PL+2 fights and onwards and as long as you have some hero points (as with regular spellstrike) it should be fine.

If you have a 50% chance of hitting at base (already counting flanking) your chances are 20% chance of strikes hit once and 30% of attempts hit twice, with 5% of the first strike only attempts being crits and 15% of the second strikes you do when hitting twice being crits (which you get to attempt half the time in this case). Worse base value than SS, better crit potential.

[25speedforseaweedleshy]

everytime almost forget rogue doesn't get full martial proficiency get reminded in annoying way

goblin rogue can make big boom gun simple weapon

pretty sure some other ancestry can get decent simple gun too

[graystone]

roquepo wrote:

Did not mention Stab and Blast because it is awkward from a Rogue perpective. Needing 2 different proficiencies is hard on them and the big reason the feat was not discussed much when it was printed as a good combo feat for the class.

A rogue could use an Explosive Dogslicer by getting Unconventional Weaponry [goblin], which makes it simple for proficiency, and being from the region Alkenstar, Dongun Hold, Tian Xia, Vudra, Arcadia, Ustalav or the Shackles for access to the weapon. Doing this means it progresses with the normal rogue proficiencies. It's a nice rogue weapon to with backstabber, finesse on the melee part and Scatter 5'.

Another option is to take Bullet Dancer Dedication at 14th level [when they qualify] to use a hand cannon/air repeater [either] with an attached bayonet.

EDIT: A Ruffian rogue could also use a Fire Lance without jumping through any extra hoops too.

IMO, he bigger issue waiting till 16th level for Stab and Blast.

[roquepo]

graystone wrote:

roquepo wrote:

Did not mention Stab and Blast because it is awkward from a Rogue perpective. Needing 2 different proficiencies is hard on them and the big reason the feat was not discussed much when it was printed as a good combo feat for the class.

IMO, he bigger issue waiting till 16th level for Stab and Blast.

Yes, Triggerbrand Salvo is just better for any Rogue build, level 12 is much, much earlier and it is also easier to set up.

[SuperBidi]

I've always used strict RAW on this one and as such allowed the "double Sneak Attack" with Magical Trickster.

[Baarogue]

Neither Spellstrike nor Eldritch Shot interact with Magical Trickster by RAW because you do not "succeed at a spell attack roll" with either of them, which the wording of Magical Trickster requires. You make a Strike with your melee or ranged weapon, "using your attack roll result to determine the effects of both the Strike and the spell."

Triggerbrand Salvo looks legit for double sneak attacks since you're making two strikes, naturally assuming the melee portion of the combination weapon is agile or finesse, and the foe is flat-footed via means other than stealth or flanking

and I believe all rogues, not just Ruffians, can utilize the Fire Lance, since it is a simple ranged weapon

[roquepo]

I don't think it is clear enough to even try to say any interpretation can be RAW. It is too unclear for that IMO. While Baarogue reading is valid, you can also interpret it like:

Use your attack roll result to determine the spell effects-> Attack roll result is a success -> Spell result is a success -> you succeed at your spell attack roll

Personally, I think RAI it is supposed to work, mostly due to the Knockdown errata. With it, you also get a second sneak attack trigger "for free" and it was explicitly edited to leave clear that the interaction is intentional.

[Squiggit]

Baarogue wrote:

You make a Strike with your melee or ranged weapon, "using your attack roll result to determine the effects of both the Strike and the spell."

You use a single attack roll to determine the result. Success is a result, which is not the step being skipped. If you don't succeed at your spell attack roll, then you don't land the spell and nothing happens and the point is moot.

Regardless of your take on whether this combo works or not, this here is clearly incorrect.

[25speedforseaweedleshy]

double sneak attack damage on spellstrike seems to be more rai interpretation

that lead to the new situation that spell swipe and whirlwind spell will trigger sneak attack on all flat footed enemy

but magical trickster only allow one of them to receive double sneak attack damage