Mythic Gestalt Magus Inquisitor


Advice


So I'm building a mythic gestalt Magus Inquisitor for a one shot module. We start at level 7 and stop at level 8 mythic tier 3. I'm using the archtypes Bladebound and Kensai for the Magus and currently not using any archetypes for the Inquisitor though I'm open to doing so if they would enhance the character. The goal for the build is a dex based damage dealer.

Race:Human

Stats:
Str: 7
Dex: 22
Con: 14
Int: 16
Wis: 16
Cha: 7

Feats:
1st level:Weapon Finesse
Human Bonus:Extra Arcane Pool
Kensai:Weapon Focus (Scimitar)
3rd Level:Dervish Dance
Teamwork:Open
5th Level:Deific Obedience (Chaldira)
Teamwork:Open
Magus Bonus:Craft Wonderous Item (to get my starting items cheaper)
7th Level:Intensified Spell

Broad Study Magus Arcana

Luck Domain

Traits:
Reactionary
Lessons of Chaldira
Magical Lineage (Shocking Grasp)

Current Gear:
Blackblade
Amulet of Natural Armor +2
Ring of Protection +1
Cloak of Resistance +3
Belt of Incredible Dexterity +2
Headband of Mental Prowess (Int,Wis) +2
Handy Haversack

Thoughts? Anything I could do to improve this? Any spells from the Inquisitor list that stand out for spell combat/spellstrike when using a keen scimitar? Recommended teamwork Feats? Better feat selections?


Quote:

Spell Combat (Ex)

At 1st level, a magus learns to cast spells and wield his weapons at the same time. This functions much like two-weapon fighting, but the off-hand weapon is a spell that is being cast. To use this ability, the magus must have one hand free (even if the spell being cast does not have somatic components), while wielding a light or one-handed melee weapon in the other hand. As a full-round action, he can make all of his attacks with his melee weapon at a –2 penalty and can also cast any spell from the magus spell list with a casting time of 1 standard action (any attack roll made as part of this spell also takes this penalty). If he casts this spell defensively, he can decide to take an additional penalty on his attack rolls, up to his Intelligence bonus, and add the same amount as a circumstance bonus on his concentration check. If the check fails, the spell is wasted, but the attacks still take the penalty. A magus can choose to cast the spell first or make the weapon attacks first, but if he has more than one attack, he cannot cast the spell between weapon attacks.

Quote:

Spellstrike (Su)

At 2nd level, whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of “touch” from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack. Instead of the free melee touch attack normally allowed to deliver the spell, a magus can make one free melee attack with his weapon (at his highest base attack bonus) as part of casting this spell. If successful, this melee attack deals its normal damage as well as the effects of the spell. If the magus makes this attack in concert with spell combat, this melee attack takes all the penalties accrued by spell combat melee attacks. This attack uses the weapon’s critical range (20, 19–20, or 18–20 and modified by the keen weapon property or similar effects), but the spell effect only deals ×2 damage on a successful critical hit, while the weapon damage uses its own critical modifier.

You're not going to be able to use Inquisitor spells with Spell Combat or Spellstrike, unfortunately. I would either choose a different class than Inquisitor, or plan on doing your Inquisitor stuff without Spell Combat or Spellstrike. Or, talk to your GM about allowing this as a special case. Maybe ask him if you can Homebrew a Magus Arcana that allows you to cast spells from other classes if you're truly married to the Magus/Inquisitor concept.

If he says no, then I would probably plan on choosing a different Class pairing.


Broad Study (Ex)
Prerequisite: Magus 6, levels in another spellcasting class

Benefit: The magus selects another one of his spellcasting classes. The magus can use his spellstrike and spell combat abilities while casting or using spells from the spell list of that class. This does not allow him to cast arcane spells from that class’s spell list without suffering the normal chances of arcane spell failure, unless the spell lacks somatic components.


Hisoka777 wrote:

Broad Study (Ex)

Prerequisite: Magus 6, levels in another spellcasting class

Benefit: The magus selects another one of his spellcasting classes. The magus can use his spellstrike and spell combat abilities while casting or using spells from the spell list of that class. This does not allow him to cast arcane spells from that class’s spell list without suffering the normal chances of arcane spell failure, unless the spell lacks somatic components.

Ha, I had no idea that even existed ;) Carry on ;)


For your Teamwork Feats, I'd recommend going Shake it Off for your level 3 feat and get a nice bonus on all saves, and then Outflank for your level 6 feat. And then talk your party members into going for Crit-fishing weapons.

You're taking Weapon Focus in Scimitar, but later you said you'll be using a keen rapier. I'm going to assume you meant Scimitar for the 15-20 crit? If your allies also have keen 15-20 crit weapons, you guys will become a blender. Combat Reflexes is highly encouraged for both you and your allies as well, because this can occur several times a round.

What is your party composition btw?

Liberty's Edge

Get Shared Training, especially once you have Outflank. It has a very good duration and being able to hand out Outflank/Escape Route/etc at the beginning of the adventuring day will make you quite popular.


Ryze Kuja wrote:

For your Teamwork Feats, I'd recommend going Shake it Off for your level 3 feat and get a nice bonus on all saves, and then Outflank for your level 6 feat. And then talk your party members into going for Crit-fishing weapons.

You're taking Weapon Focus in Scimitar, but later you said you'll be using a keen rapier. I'm going to assume you meant Scimitar for the 15-20 crit? If your allies also have keen 15-20 crit weapons, you guys will become a blender. Combat Reflexes is highly encouraged for both you and your allies as well, because this can occur several times a round.

What is your party composition btw?

Current Party composition is Human Ranger/Bard for Ranged damage, Synthesist Summoner/Paladin Flying Reach weapon BSF, and a Shaman/something for our control caster healer.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

I don't want to rain on your parade, but do be aware that you will be very swift action starved. Inquisitor relies on at least 2 rounds of swift actions to get going. Magus has multiple options that use swift actions. And Mythic has many options that use swift actions.

I'm not saying to not to go with your build, but try considering what order you will use which abilities. How many rounds into combat will you go before you can be at full strength?


Melkiador wrote:

I don't want to rain on your parade, but do be aware that you will be very swift action starved. Inquisitor relies on at least 2 rounds of swift actions to get going. Magus has multiple options that use swift actions. And Mythic has many options that use swift actions.

I'm not saying to not to go with your build, but try considering what order you will use which abilities. How many rounds into combat will you go before you can be at full strength?

This is definitely a concern of mine. Obviously I’d lay judgment down first. Followed by adding keen to the scimitar. Lastly apply bane and go off. First round would probably be a mythic Heroism. Then mythic Divine Favor, and then start shocking grasping. I could probably get into the fray after Heroism and just use Spell Combat to apply the other buffs.


Have you chosen your mythic path and options? I'm guessing you're going champion, since attacking is the common factor in both parts of your gestalt.


Melkiador wrote:
Have you chosen your mythic path and options? I'm guessing you're going champion, since attacking is the common factor in both parts of your gestalt.

I was planning on going Champion, dual path Hierophant, mythic spellcasting tier 1, Tier 2 Sustained by Faith for a way to get all my daily abilities back with an hour of meditation, Tier 3 go for Fleet Warrior, not sure on the feat.


In all honesty this is not a good gestalt combination. Your classes have to many conflicting requirements and very little synergy. Needing both WIS and INT means the DC to resist your spells are going to weak. You have only 2 good saves and medium BAB. This is a paper tiger, good in theory but bad in practice.

If you want to stick with the inquisitor, consider an unchained monk. Flurry of Bane is ridiculously good. A DEX based monk with mythic weapon finesse is actually pretty good. Focus on DEX and WIS with a decent CON. Dump STR and CHA and leave your INT at 10. Take Enduring blessing instead of fleet warrior. Make sure to take mythic heroism as one of your spells. This gives you a +4 on all attacks, saves skills and weapon damage that last for 24 hours.


Mysterious Stranger wrote:

In all honesty this is not a good gestalt combination. Your classes have to many conflicting requirements and very little synergy. Needing both WIS and INT means the DC to resist your spells are going to weak. You have only 2 good saves and medium BAB. This is a paper tiger, good in theory but bad in practice.

If you want to stick with the inquisitor, consider an unchained monk. Flurry of Bane is ridiculously good. A DEX based monk with mythic weapon finesse is actually pretty good. Focus on DEX and WIS with a decent CON. Dump STR and CHA and leave your INT at 10. Take Enduring blessing instead of fleet warrior. Make sure to take mythic heroism as one of your spells. This gives you a +4 on all attacks, saves skills and weapon damage that last for 24 hours.

What would your suggestion be if I wanted to focus on the Magus instead?


Swashbuckler could work fairly well. You get Weapon finesse for free which frees a feat. Inspired blade would be a good choice, but will require you to use the rapier. It gives you weapon finesse and weapon focus at first level. That allows you to pick up fencing grace to get DEX to damage. It also allows you to pick up a few fighter only feats. Weapon specialization adds another 2 points of damage. It also gives you level to damage as long as you have a point of panache. You don’t need to bother with Keen because you get the same thing from Rapier Training. It also gives you full BAB, gives back proficiency in all martial weapons and all good saves. You don’t need WIS so that eases your stat situation. Most of the swashbuckler’s abilities are constant so are not in competition for your swift actions.

If you don’t want swashbuckler slayer might work. You still get full BAB, all god saves, lots of skills, slayer talents, studied strike and sneak attack.


Mythic weapon finesse can handle the dex to damage and works with spell combat.


Melkiador wrote:

I don't want to rain on your parade, but do be aware that you will be very swift action starved. Inquisitor relies on at least 2 rounds of swift actions to get going. Magus has multiple options that use swift actions. And Mythic has many options that use swift actions.

I'm not saying to not to go with your build, but try considering what order you will use which abilities. How many rounds into combat will you go before you can be at full strength?

This is exactly what I came here to say.

Inquisitor relies on a lot of swift actions to get going, and Magus relies on swift actions basically every round. You're going to be waiting 2 to 3 rounds to activate all your stuff so you can start fighting. By which time your allies will have probably killed the enemy.


Mysterious Stranger wrote:

In all honesty this is not a good gestalt combination. Your classes have to many conflicting requirements and very little synergy. Needing both WIS and INT means the DC to resist your spells are going to weak. You have only 2 good saves and medium BAB. This is a paper tiger, good in theory but bad in practice.

If you want to stick with the inquisitor, consider an unchained monk. Flurry of Bane is ridiculously good. A DEX based monk with mythic weapon finesse is actually pretty good. Focus on DEX and WIS with a decent CON. Dump STR and CHA and leave your INT at 10. Take Enduring blessing instead of fleet warrior. Make sure to take mythic heroism as one of your spells. This gives you a +4 on all attacks, saves skills and weapon damage that last for 24 hours.

Especially if you decide to be an archer. Play as a Zen Archer Monk Inquisitor and I bet it will be amazing. But you don't actually go that high on dex and focus on str and wisdom instead.


Hisoka777 wrote:
Ryze Kuja wrote:

For your Teamwork Feats, I'd recommend going Shake it Off for your level 3 feat and get a nice bonus on all saves, and then Outflank for your level 6 feat. And then talk your party members into going for Crit-fishing weapons.

You're taking Weapon Focus in Scimitar, but later you said you'll be using a keen rapier. I'm going to assume you meant Scimitar for the 15-20 crit? If your allies also have keen 15-20 crit weapons, you guys will become a blender. Combat Reflexes is highly encouraged for both you and your allies as well, because this can occur several times a round.

What is your party composition btw?

Current Party composition is Human Ranger/Bard for Ranged damage, Synthesist Summoner/Paladin Flying Reach weapon BSF, and a Shaman/something for our control caster healer.

For the shaman, the hexes Protective Luck, Soothsayer & Chant are an amazing buff, at the cost of the shaman's move action. Note that Protective Luck does not have the 1/day restriction that's found on most hexes.

If your party has 2+ members with high crit ranges, e.g. 18-20 scimitar with improved crit for 15-20, then the hex combo Fortune & Chant is flatly broken. Rolling twice to get a 15-20 means getting a crit just over half of your attacks (odds of not getting a crit is 70% * 70% = 49%, hence you get a crit 51% of the time), and then you roll twice to confirm.

Cheers.


So after looking further into it and thinking critically, I’m not really seeing the swift action dependency that’s being propagated here. I’m only seeing 2 swift actions that are necessary for the build to function. Arcane Pool to add +1 and Keen to my Black Blade and Bane. Between those 2, Mythic Heroism, Divine Favor, and Haste (cast from my summoner friend) I’m sitting at a +25 or +26 to hit depending on how my Deific Obedience goes. With 3 attacks a round all with a -2 penalty with spell combat and spellstrike casting touch spells I can get into combat and be attacking starting on round 2. With a +16 to all my saving throws I don’t think I’m losing too much with not having a perfect reflex save. It does hurt losing 1 iterative attack but I’ll have it for the final boss at 8th level.


Competing swift actions:
*Arcane Pool
*Some good Arcana: Accurate Strike, Arcane Accuracy, Hasted Assault
*Spell Recall(Some will call this unnecessary, but it's one of my favorite things to do as a magus.)

*Judgement, which can also be switched out for a different judgement with another swift.
*Bane!

*Every option for mythic Champion's Strike

*And then if you should happen to want to cast a swift action spell...

It's an issue. It's more of an issue than relying on multiple ability scores in my opinion.


Part of this also goes with the assumption of rocket tag. At this level and tier, people can dish out crazy amounts of damage, if they try to build for that. Do we have an expectation that many combats will go for many rounds? How min/max is your party?


So with the archetypes I chose for Magus I only get 1 arcana at level 6 and it’s Broad Study. I also don’t get Spell Recall. Judgment can be applied after all the others are up. Not getting to use Mythic Champion Strike is rough for sure. Not sure which swift action spells are worth it but yeah it’s not as bad as it initially seemed but it is definitely still rough.


Melkiador wrote:
Part of this also goes with the assumption of rocket tag. At this level and tier, people can dish out crazy amounts of damage, if they try to build for that. Do we have an expectation that many combats will go for many rounds? How min/max is your party?

So the party isn’t min/maxed at all. This run is actually a test to see how strong Gestalt is in mythic because we plan on playing Wrath of the Righteous and the GM is contemplating allowing gestalt with it. So he’s doing a side by side test of a regular mythic party and a gestalt mythic party through the same module to see just how much gestalt adds. As a result the group is purposefully powering down so the gap isn’t too egregious and the DM will allow us to gestalt for WoR.


So.... not to be that guy, but... that sounds like a conflict of interests. Build these one shot characters weak to build stronger characters in a campaign?

That's not how I roll personally, but it seems like a reasonable thing to expect humans to do.


Well, for reference, in the actual campaign I plan to play an Exploiter Pact Wizard so like it’s completely irrelevant what I gestalt with that because it’s already OP. So honestly I could care less if I actually get to gestalt or not. I was ready to go with a Ragebred Skinwalker Beastmorph Vivisectionist Alchemist/Primalist Rageshaper Bloodrager but the group asked me to power that down so I made this.


So, my point of reference is simply as a base Inquisitor focusing on archery.

The start of my first turn of combat would be to cast Divine Favor/Divine Power, activate judgement, can't recall how I would spend my move action exactly. I had the Chivalry Inquisition, so I had a mount that would reposition us for maximum effect on the next round.

Now, it was a big buff to pull out judgement and Divine Favor/Power and on the next round I would use bane. But I was catching up in terms of damage output to whatever the party had already done. Thankfully comparing to melee it's not too much because they can typically only get one attack in.

But you're not ranged. You're going to need to move in. Round 2 you're going to use bane, preventing you from using other swift actions. And what? Cast another buff spell? Now you're spending 2 rounds buffing?

It doesn't sound bad on paper but if you actually plot out your actions turn by turn you're going to realize you can't do a lot of what you want before combat is over.

Sure you've got a lot of options, options you can't employ because combat will end quickly.

You're either going to use a lot of Inquisitor abilities or a lot of Magus abilities but not both. So it's kind of a waste to gestalt the two classes together.


I guess if you have a super long adventuring day, then having the large pool of competing abilities to draw upon can be good. But that will vary wildly per gaming group, and still get problematic as you level up and get more uses per level.

I wish I could give a "better" combo to go with. Magus combos well with a number of things, but none will really have near the same flavor as combo with inquisitor, at least not with running up against similar issues like a magus/warpriest would have.


So round 1 would probably be swift action arcane pool point for +1 and Keen, standard action cast mythic heroism, move action close the distance. Round 2 apply bane, spell combat to apply divine favor and get 1 attack in. Rounds 3 and on spell combat for intensified shocking grasp for 2 attacks a round. Once I hit Tier 3 mythic and I get fleet warrior and enduring blessing (extra path ability mythic feat) I’ll have mythic heroism constantly active so I’ll be able to spell combat in round 1 with divine favor, move in and attack twice with keen. Round 2 would be Bane and spellstrike with intensified shocking grasps. It’s not the best but it should be decent. Even better when hasted.


Keep in mind bane is only 2d6 damage while judgements (at 8th level) can allow you to run bonuses to attack and damage (and arguably this scales better than the magus arcane pool), although you wont get keen.

Unless you find that you're hitting on like 5+ on d20 rolls, I tend to value increasing my attack roll.

Anyways, you're not unleashing a big attack until round 3 by which time combat is probably going to over, depending on how the other players do things.


Claxon wrote:

Keep in mind bane is only 2d6 damage while judgements (at 8th level) can allow you to run bonuses to attack and damage (and arguably this scales better than the magus arcane pool), although you wont get keen.

Unless you find that you're hitting on like 5+ on d20 rolls, I tend to value increasing my attack roll.

Anyways, you're not unleashing a big attack until round 3 by which time combat is probably going to over, depending on how the other players do things.

Bane treats the weapon’s enhancement bonus as 2 higher when attacking the creature type chosen so it adds +2 to hit and damage as well as 2d6 additional damage.

I would hope that at +23 would hit most things a lvl 7 character would be fighting.

This is true but we’ll have to see how they end up building their characters.


Since you have a Ranger in the party, you'll have an Animal Companion. You might consider taking the feat Animal Ally and Boon Companion yourself (or talk the paladin or shaman into taking these), and then use the spell Shared Training on the two animal companions, and then cast Shared Training again on the Paladin and Shaman (I would see if your Shaman would be willing to get a Keen Fauchard and Combat Reflexes so he can back you up with reach). If you can get Caster Level 9 via items/feats somehow, then you can share Two Teamwork feats using Shared Training, and give them all Shake It Off and Outflank.

Maybe even throw down some gold for a Beads of Karma, then you'll have CL13 for 10 minutes (BBEG time!), and you can share 3 Teamwork Feats. If you do this, I'd recommend taking Broken Wing Gambit so that way you're causing all other allies to get an AoO whenever they get attacked, AND whenever any of you crit with Outflank, you'll also provoke AoO's.

This would be industrial-strength blender mode with you + 4 allies all having Outflank and Broken Wing Gambit.

If you don't want to throw down the gold and a feat for a 3rd teamwork feat, then maybe take Broken Wing Gambit instead of Shake It Off.


Oh, man. I am a little late to this conversation but ... this makes looks like the perfect opportunity to pair a Magus up with a Living Grimoire Inquisitor. Kensai would even work wonderfully with it, but not Bladebound. Smacking people around with an uber charged up Spellbook and delivering a shocking grasp through it just makes me laugh.


Hisoka777 wrote:
Claxon wrote:

Keep in mind bane is only 2d6 damage while judgements (at 8th level) can allow you to run bonuses to attack and damage (and arguably this scales better than the magus arcane pool), although you wont get keen.

Unless you find that you're hitting on like 5+ on d20 rolls, I tend to value increasing my attack roll.

Anyways, you're not unleashing a big attack until round 3 by which time combat is probably going to over, depending on how the other players do things.

Bane treats the weapon’s enhancement bonus as 2 higher when attacking the creature type chosen so it adds +2 to hit and damage as well as 2d6 additional damage.

I would hope that at +23 would hit most things a lvl 7 character would be fighting.

This is true but we’ll have to see how they end up building their characters.

Bane would be a +2 to hit and +7 damage on average. Judgement at 8th level, when you can have 2 judgements active, it +2 to attack and +3 damage. But judgement lasts an entire combat while bane is per round usage. And while +23 isn't bad, don't forget you can often "spend" to hit to do other things. An example (not suggesting you use this) is power attack.

Judgement also has opportunity to provide other bonuses besides attack or damage, so it's more flexible.

But anyways, the point is about if you're not making your alpha strike until round 3 you're not doing much of anything.


Hisoka777 wrote:
Melkiador wrote:
Part of this also goes with the assumption of rocket tag. At this level and tier, people can dish out crazy amounts of damage, if they try to build for that. Do we have an expectation that many combats will go for many rounds? How min/max is your party?
So the party isn’t min/maxed at all. This run is actually a test to see how strong Gestalt is in mythic because we plan on playing Wrath of the Righteous and the GM is contemplating allowing gestalt with it. So he’s doing a side by side test of a regular mythic party and a gestalt mythic party through the same module to see just how much gestalt adds. As a result the group is purposefully powering down so the gap isn’t too egregious and the DM will allow us to gestalt for WoR.

Mixing gestalt and mythic can get insane. If this is the case, you really should be trying to build as strong as a character as you can. If you want to sway the GM into allowing you to use gestalt and mythic, your current build works perfectly for that. After this is over then you can build a completely overpowered build and totally wreck the campaign. To me this is a bit dishonest and as a GM I would be very disappointed if my players did this to me.

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