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Yes, and? We're discussing what the demographics actually are, not what the infrastructure would support.Iadara is also a barely populated ghost city and shadow of its former population.(we don't have Darklands and underwater people in the real world, but I think it's a safe bet they can't support a large population as well as the surface).If anything it's the reverse. Zirnakaynin's as populous as or more populous than Iadara.
Kind of thought we were, given the bolded.
(we don't have Darklands and underwater people in the real world, but I think it's a safe bet they can't support a large population as well as the surface).If anything it's the reverse. Zirnakaynin's as populous as or more populous than Iadara.
Checking the wiki: 1000 less, with a 77% drow population compared to Iadara's likely 95+%; your point stands nonetheless, but as Morhek noted, urban populations aren't the only ones. I suspect Kyonin has a far greater rural population than somewhere like the Darklands, where space is limited enough that I imagine places would be more packed. Not to mention it's a very dangerous place with limited resources, increasing the need for fortified settlements (although the Tanglebriar is hardly welcoming either, to be fair). That being said, it's fantasy, and subterranean settlements are far more feasible than in real life on Golarion, so that may not be as much of a factor as I'd assumed.
Kind of thought we were, given the bolded.Yes, and? We're discussing what the demographics actually are, not what the infrastructure would support.Iadara is also a barely populated ghost city and shadow of its former population.(we don't have Darklands and underwater people in the real world, but I think it's a safe bet they can't support a large population as well as the surface).If anything it's the reverse. Zirnakaynin's as populous as or more populous than Iadara.
Well, I was making an inference about "what the demographics actually are" based on what I assume "the infrastructure would support", so sort of both, but more so the former...
Honestly, I don't see much point in going back and forth on this any further when we don't really have demographic data aside from some city populations. Ultimately it comes down to whether or not you interpret "the most common elven ethnicity in the Inner Sea regiom" as meaning the largest on Golarion in general or not. I think it makes sense that way given most elves reside within that area, but you could technically interpret that as indicating a plurality, and Jinin may offset things. Raven Black does have a point about the number who left potentially being higher than the number who returned, so maybe "most elves" then isn't "most elves" now, but I feel like that was the intended implication.
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I feel the need to point that we're counting drow as elves even though in Golarion lore they aren't elves in the same way that azarketi and fetchlings aren't humans and hobgoblins aren't goblins. It's been made clear that they're technically a separate ancestry thanks to the depth of the transformation they went through. Biologically and culturally they don't have a lot to do with their kin, so drow could have a larger population without it contradicting the part about how aiudeen are the most common elven ethnicity.
Actually, the Azarketi and Fetchling comparisons may not be the best comparisons to make. But I definitely get where you are going.
The Drow are indeed elves as they carry both the Drow Trait and the Elf Trait. Whereas Elves only carry the Elf Trait.
The Azarketi and Fetchlings have both completely lost the Human Trait and carry the Azarketi Trait and Fetchling Trait respectively.
A closer comparison would be Dwarves and Duergar, with Dwarves only carrying the Dwarf Trait, but the Duergar carrying both the Duergar Trait and the Dwarf Trait.
Having both the Drow Trait and Elf Trait may indicate that the Drow are still on a journey of transition or it may indicate that Drow have permanently gained the Drow Trait in addition to the Elf Trait. Either way, there is a clear indication that Drow are Elves but at the same time Drow are something very different from Elves. Other Elves did not go through the physical and mental changes that led to the development of the Drow Trait.
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I'm not a fan of quibbling over whether people count as elves or not even when they have the elf-subtype, especially with half-elves where you start getting into some uncomfortable questions about the kind of race-purity with categorisation that the old system encouraged. Drow and elves are offshoots with a common ancestry - it would be like saying birds aren't dinosaurs because they also have the bird subtype. Or that Neanderthals weren't humans because they were so physically different, even though they left a genetic legacy in our gene pool and we in theirs - species isn't as definable and concrete a thing as we think it is.
At the very least Drow belong to the same "family" as Aiudeen, Wild Elves and Jinin, and while I don't expect friendly drow to suddenly flood the Inner Sea and assimilate into surface-dweller society, or even be common in Kyonin, it would be nice to see some forging a new path that isn't tainted by demon worship or Rovagug's influence and finding commonalities with their elven kin. Again, if they were going to share a perspective with anyone it would be the descendants of those other elves who stayed, who probably didn't appreciate being abandoned by Castrovel when it shut down the Aiudara when the Aiudeen pulled out. With Earthfall done, there was no reason Castrovel couldn't have reopened the portal and let people return to assist with the cleanup, maybe solidified an urbanised elven presence before humanity beat them to it, unless it either couldn't afford to (did the Starstone pass by Castrovel on its way to nuke the Azlanti?) or just didn't want to. But they dithered until Treerazor became too much of an issue to keep ignoring Golarion.
As someone tired of the Tolkienian tropes rife throughout fantasy, that's a direction to take it to set Golarion's elves apart, with internecine tensions that aren't racial - that the Drow and Wild Elves somewhat understandably resent the Aiudeen for pretending they didn't abandon Golarion, while the Aiudeen object to being blamed for how hard the ones who chose to stay had it when they had (potentially serious) issues of their own to deal with on Castrovel that the Wild Elves aren't aware of, and which put their reluctance to return in a less harsh light. I mean, it's an entire planet with nations and history of its own even more ancient than Golarion, but we only know enough to see it as the elves' "true" homeland. And elves aren't even the dominant species on it - the elf-like lashunta are the dominant culture on Castrovel, with elves coming a close second. Hopefully Gatewalkers helps contextualise that somewhat. I still like the idea that Iadara is only half of one whole city, the other half much bigger and lying on the other side of the gate out of sight of Golarians and seeing its more isolated part as a bit more distant, even if it's just a gate trip away. The elf Staten Island to Castrovel's New York, if you will. :P
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I feel the need to clarify. My point was "aiudeen may not be any more populous than drow because the latter may not have been considered elves when the statement that aiudeen were the most common elven ethnicity was made". I wasn't quibbling about racial purity. I'm not denying that they have a shared heritage, that they need to reconcile, or that they have some understandable hangups outside racial tension. My point was purely in response to the discussion about drow populations.
Sorry for inferring something you didn't intend. In my defence, the big problem is with the language we use to talk about it, not with your intent. You're right, when the sentence was written Paizo considered Elves something mechanically distinct from Drow. This is exactly the kind of misunderstanding the new language is meant to avoid.
Are there 2 Drow Racial Heritages in 2E? I would think that the population of Drow would be less than surface elves because their society is CE and very backstabbing and higher warfare among the houses as well as more warfare with other subterranean races.
I don't think Drow are currently playable, though in 1e Drow and Drow Nobles had very different stat-blocks. I doubt that'll remain in a 2e version, since the innately stronger Drow Nobles don't seem like something a player should be able to pick, better suited to NPCs.
Are there 2 Drow Racial Heritages in 2E? I would think that the population of Drow would be less than surface elves because their society is CE and very backstabbing and higher warfare among the houses as well as more warfare with other subterranean races.
The 2e line is that the Chaotic Evil demon servants are mostly the folk of Zinakaynin, with other Drow elsewhere tending towards CN and sometimes revering proteans. They aren’t playable in PF2 yet.
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Are there 2 Drow Racial Heritages in 2E? I would think that the population of Drow would be less than surface elves because their society is CE and very backstabbing and higher warfare among the houses as well as more warfare with other subterranean races.The 2e line is that the Chaotic Evil demon servants are mostly the folk of Zinakaynin, with other Drow elsewhere tending towards CN and sometimes revering proteans. They aren’t playable in PF2 yet.
I am a bit skeptical that the vast majority of elves that were so tainted by Rovagug that they changed into something different would not be CE.
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I am a bit skeptical that the vast majority of elves that were so tainted by Rovagug that they changed into something different would not be CE.Are there 2 Drow Racial Heritages in 2E? I would think that the population of Drow would be less than surface elves because their society is CE and very backstabbing and higher warfare among the houses as well as more warfare with other subterranean races.The 2e line is that the Chaotic Evil demon servants are mostly the folk of Zinakaynin, with other Drow elsewhere tending towards CN and sometimes revering proteans. They aren’t playable in PF2 yet.
Perhaps they were, ten thousand years ago. But ten thousand years is a long time.
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I mean "a god did something" is the ultimate narrative contrivance you can use to justify anything if you want.
So "Earthfall made Rovagug rouse in his sleep, so he corrupted a bunch of underground people" works, but from there you could either say "and the Rough Beast has been gradually waking up ever since" to make the effect larger or "and then Rovagug went back to sleep" to make it smaller. It just depends on whichever one the author wants,
Since "a god did something" is also how you move continents, create new species out of whole cloth, wink planets in and out of existence, etc.
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I am a bit skeptical that the vast majority of elves that were so tainted by Rovagug that they changed into something different would not be CE.Are there 2 Drow Racial Heritages in 2E? I would think that the population of Drow would be less than surface elves because their society is CE and very backstabbing and higher warfare among the houses as well as more warfare with other subterranean races.The 2e line is that the Chaotic Evil demon servants are mostly the folk of Zinakaynin, with other Drow elsewhere tending towards CN and sometimes revering proteans. They aren’t playable in PF2 yet.
The existence of tieflings points to an innate nature not necessarily being tied to alignment or moral compass. Tieflings' infernal heritage or influence on their bloodline affects them physically, but most tieflings are perfectly fine unless social persecution and prejudice drive them to extremism. We also don't know that Rovagug IS what affected the drow, since the 2e Bestiary notes that "[w]hether it was the influence of a specific demon lord, the Rough Beast Rovagug, or some other fell force is unknown." James Jacobs himself noted recently in another thread that the Rough Beast actually doesn't dwell in the core of Golarion, it exists bound in a demiplane adjacent to the core. The transformation of elves into drow being Rovagug's fault seems to be one of many competing explanations (which I'm thrilled about Paizo embracing, since hard answers narrow possibility). Drow society is chaotic evil, but that doesn't mean individual drow, or even drow as a whole, have to be chaotic evil if they managed to escape that system. Which is why the idea of Nocticulan reformers or refugees is so interesting.
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Again, it’s worth noting that Zirnakaynin =/= “Drow society.” Just because that’s who we saw the most of in 1e doesn’t mean they’re all that exist, and 2e sources seem to suggest plenty of Drow settlements that aren’t stuffed to the gills with demon cultusts.
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Again, it’s worth noting that Zirnakaynin =/= “Drow society.” Just because that’s who we saw the most of in 1e doesn’t mean they’re all that exist, and 2e sources seem to suggest plenty of Drow settlements that aren’t stuffed to the gills with demon cultusts.
Don't drag 1E into this, Second Darkness was 3.5.
Yeah. I mean... Second Darkness has some pretty massive mistakes, like Crying Leaf (I think that was the elven town) not having beds because the author assumed that Golarion elves tranced like Forgotten Realms.
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I wouldn't want to see all of the problematic things in Second Darkness just disappear without a trace. People don't quit being jerks overnight, so I would expect plenty of jerks still to be in Kyonin and places colonized by Kyonin -- they just don't have dominance any more, but you can be sure they would be regrouping and trying to stage a comeback. After all, this happens on Earth all the time.
As for the lack of beds in Crying Leaf, how about in the early stages of the conflict the Elves got pushed out so often, with everything they couldn't carry out getting trashed, that they resorted to just using the Golarion equivalent of sleeping bags, and then after they got better established, they kept up the habit. And then it just so happens that the couple of times when they decided they were well-enough established to start making beds again, they got pushed out and their stuff trashed again, and now they subconsciously think it's bad luck to make beds, even if they won't say so directly.
It specifically stated that they didn't have beds because they didn't sleep in a sidebar. Personally, I'd rather that errors be thrown out entirely than have elves continue to have been racist xenophobic jerks.
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It specifically stated that they didn't have beds because they didn't sleep in a sidebar. Personally, I'd rather that errors be thrown out entirely than have elves continue to have been racist xenophobic jerks.
The problem with the aiudeen of Kyonin being racist xenophobic jerks was that they were the primary representatives of Elvendom in the setting. They are such no longer. Their continued marginalization is more than sufficient, and a fitting fate.
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I'd like to see Kyonin creep a little towards CG, if only because it feels much less likely that Jinin is able to break away from being LN... but that's a whole other bag of worms.
I don't envy the team tasked with rehabilitating the entire nation of elven weaboos who are obsessed with honor.
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I'd like to see Kyonin creep a little towards CG, if only because it feels much less likely that Jinin is able to break away from being LN... but that's a whole other bag of worms.
I don't envy the team tasked with rehabilitating the entire nation of elven weaboos who are obsessed with honor.
I would hope they'd turn to someone of Japanese heritage for that task. And I would love to see a nation advertised as CG actually be CG.
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I would hope they'd turn to someone of Japanese heritage for that task. And I would love to see a nation advertised as CG actually be CG.I'd like to see Kyonin creep a little towards CG, if only because it feels much less likely that Jinin is able to break away from being LN... but that's a whole other bag of worms.
I don't envy the team tasked with rehabilitating the entire nation of elven weaboos who are obsessed with honor.
Based on the credits for LO: Mwangi Expanse and LO: Impossible Lands, Paizo have been pretty good about getting a range of diverse consultants and avoiding exoticising their settings. Mwangi Expanse in particular was very well received, after the problematic 1e version. If Paizo did flesh out Jinin, and wider Tian Xia, I believe they can do it in a satisfying way that doesn't reduce them to just Elves who wanted to be Samurai.
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Here’s a thought; what if rather than a Kyonin book, it’s a guide to the aiudara network, with writeups of various places connected by the elf gates?
I’m picturing something almost like Distant Shores in structure, but with a tighter thematic link. You could even do Dark Archive-style linked adventures for each!
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I had the thought that, with the Aiudara network, there's really no reason why Kyonin has to be the only major Aiudeen foothold on Golarion. Just the only one in the Inner Sea with access to an Aiudara, unless they work like Stargates and you can only have one per planet. You could really flesh out other elven bastions across the world - maybe there's a city in Arcadia who didn't abandon Golarion, but returned after the fallout subsided to help with cleanup, leading Arcadian elves to develop differently? Or a stone in Casmaron which the early Padishah Empire figured out how to work, leading to contact with Castrovel and mutual immigration (there's a small note in Qadira: Jewel of the East about Lashunta communities across Kelesh).
And there's the stone Voradni Voon used to transport his army from Iblydos to Kortos - it sounds like it was the key to Voon's success since it led to multiple places, not just Kortos, and was it originally one of the Aiudara or something else? If it is, how did the Kortos node end up on an island that Aroden dragged up from the sea? Whatever the case, the implication that there were elves in Iblydos, who might have left ruins even older than the late Koloran cyclopes or early Iblydan humans and might have left descendants, is an interesting one.
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IMO, it's very likely that there are elves all across Golarion. They wouldn't be as relatively common as they are in the Inner Sea or even Tian Xia, but there's no reason for them not to be just about anywhere.
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I have every expectation that Arcadia has its own elves.
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Here's a list of known Aiudara (but it may be out of date). They aren't necessarily in every large nation on Golarion (in particular, Cheliax and Taldor seem to be missing from the list), but they aren't super-scarce.
I seen to have mixed up the Elf Stones with the Sovyrian Stone. What I meant was that there might be other High Elf communities across the world with direct ties to Castrovel, but with a world-wide network of lesser stones for intra-planetary travel it sounds like the Sovyrian Stone would likely have been the only point-to-point contact with Castrovel and then travellers would radiate out from it.
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You could really flesh out other elven bastions across the world - maybe there's a city in Arcadia who didn't abandon Golarion, but returned after the fallout subsided to help with cleanup, leading Arcadian elves to develop differently? Or a stone in Casmaron which the early Padishah Empire figured out how to work, leading to contact with Castrovel and mutual immigration (there's a small note in Qadira: Jewel of the East about Lashunta communities across Kelesh).
Why would these be aiudeen any more than the elves of Garund and Tian Xia are?
You could really flesh out other elven bastions across the world - maybe there's a city in Arcadia who didn't abandon Golarion, but returned after the fallout subsided to help with cleanup, leading Arcadian elves to develop differently? Or a stone in Casmaron which the early Padishah Empire figured out how to work, leading to contact with Castrovel and mutual immigration (there's a small note in Qadira: Jewel of the East about Lashunta communities across Kelesh).Why would these be aiudeen any more than the elves of Garund and Tian Xia are?
My assumption is that Aiudeen differ from the Mualijae, Vourinoi and Ilverani because they're much closer to the Castrovellian baseline, at least culturally. Kyonin still has an active Sovyrian Stone. If there were other stones that could connect to Castrovel, presumably the elves that came through it would also be Aiudeen, or very Aiudeen-like.
^Blame AD&D 1st Edition or maybe even D&D before that. AD&D (and D&D?) made Elves smaller and more frail . . . and also limited their advancement as anything other than Thief, including as Magic-Users. At least D&D 3rd Edition got rid of that limitation, and then it stayed gotten rid of in Pathfinder.
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I’m quite fond of Golarions’s Elves-as-willowy-aliens-from-Psychic-Venus, personally. It’s a novel take, which is more than I can say for many settings. I continuously want the Aiudeen to feel like a culture from another planet, something I’d really hope for from a Kyonin/Iadara book. Formian and Lashunta embassies remain my dream, but aiudara-carried Elves from across Golarion are to be expected - and excited about!
This thread’s resurrection does have me wondering if the exit of Drow from canon (please, don’t cause a derail about this here) makes a trip to Kyonin more likely in 2e. Without the weight of a thorny racism legacy plotline hanging over the whole nation, we might finally have a chance to tackle Treerazer!
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I think a lot of the problem is that most peoples' exposure to "Elves" is Legolas, so you get entire civilisations of just Legolases, where everybody wants to be the dual-wielding archer ranger and the race gets statted for it, without the actual diversity Tolkien's elves had, which becomes self-perpetuating as you get elves based on elves based on elves. I think Paizo's elves have enough that set them apart from WOTC's elves, though they didn't really feel like it in 1e,but I'm sure 2e will emphasise that difference, if only because with the OGL fallout they might have to.
Part of playing that up would, necessarily, mean looking at the ways Kyonin engages with Castrovel in ways that the other nations of the Inner Sea, particularly the rest of the Shining Kingdoms, aren't aware of. You already have the secret war with Treerazor, and the possibility the elves might be willing to finally accept outsider help, and along with that, how does Kyonin feel about the other side of the Sovyrian Stone? From the perspective of its neighbours, Kyonin is a powerful (albeit insular) nation that has resolutely refused to get involved in international affairs for its own enigmatic reasons. From Castrovel's, Kyonin is but a tiny colony on a primitive backwater, or even still part of Castrovel and what locals see as the city of Iadara is merely the Golarion-bound borough of a greater city of Iadara spanning two planets. Kyonin is where the two meet. It should feel like stepping onto an alien world without having to actually go to Castrovel (or Numeria), and I suggested earlier that you could do a lot of stuff giving the High Elves a long formal tradition of Psychics. Really get Weird with what elves can be. These are literal aliens to this world, and if you're going to make that the thing that sets them apart then they should feel like it.
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Yes, and that annoys me a lot. I mean, Tolkien's Elu Thingol was the tallest of all Elves and Men. There were fan attempts to calculate his height based on other characters... in general, it came out to be about 2.7 meters. I'm sure it's not very similar to the classic elves in DnD.^Blame AD&D 1st Edition or maybe even D&D before that. AD&D (and D&D?) made Elves smaller and more frail . . . and also limited their advancement as anything other than Thief, including as Magic-Users. At least D&D 3rd Edition got rid of that limitation, and then it stayed gotten rid of in Pathfinder.
I believe DnD made their elves pretty different from Tolkien to be as safe as they could from IP infringement lawsuits.
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I find this hard to believe, since the High Elves in Warhammer are basically Tolkien's literal Noldor.
I believe DnD made their elves pretty different from Tolkien to be as safe as they could from IP infringement lawsuits.
I got something by hunting in the internet. From an article he wrote in 1974, Gygax did not like Tolkien's work much and seems to have based his elves (from Chainmail onward) on earlier lore where they were smaller than humans (ala Santa's elves).
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I feel like it's worth noting that, as explained in the article on Castrovel Trop mentioned, while Castrovel has more contact with Golarion than anywhere else in the solar system, the elves of Soyvrian call the migration of elves to Golarion the Abandonment, in the same way Golarion elves call it the Return. The premise that the Soyvrian elves and Kyonin are buddy buddy or that Soyvrian considers Kyonin a part of its territory is strictly untrue. The aiudeen only consider themselves aliens because their return was so recent in their cultural memory. They have about as much contact with their homeland as second generation immigrants have with their estranged relatives.
Whether the elves of Castrovel and the aiudeen of Golarion are "buddy buddy" is an entirely different question from whether Sovyrian considers Kyonin a part of its territory. It is a frontier march protected by the state's military - it has to be, or else a hostile power would have seized the Sovyrian Stone ages ago.
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I feel like it's worth noting that, as explained in the article on Castrovel Trop mentioned, while Castrovel has more contact with Golarion than anywhere else in the solar system, the elves of Soyvrian call the migration of elves to Golarion the Abandonment, in the same way Golarion elves call it the Return. The premise that the Soyvrian elves and Kyonin are buddy buddy or that Soyvrian considers Kyonin a part of its territory is strictly untrue. The aiudeen only consider themselves aliens because their return was so recent in their cultural memory. They have about as much contact with their homeland as second generation immigrants have with their estranged relatives.Whether the elves of Castrovel and the aiudeen of Golarion are "buddy buddy" is an entirely different question from whether Sovyrian considers Kyonin a part of its territory. It is a frontier march protected by the state's military - it has to be, or else a hostile power would have seized the Sovyrian Stone ages ago.
If nobody in Kyonin answers to a Sovyrian-based authority (or at least hasn't for thousands of years), then there's no reason to believe any Castrovelian military presence is involved at all.
If nobody in Kyonin answers to a Sovyrian-based authority (or at least hasn't for thousands of years), then there's no reason to believe any Castrovelian military presence is involved at all.I feel like it's worth noting that, as explained in the article on Castrovel Trop mentioned, while Castrovel has more contact with Golarion than anywhere else in the solar system, the elves of Soyvrian call the migration of elves to Golarion the Abandonment, in the same way Golarion elves call it the Return. The premise that the Soyvrian elves and Kyonin are buddy buddy or that Soyvrian considers Kyonin a part of its territory is strictly untrue. The aiudeen only consider themselves aliens because their return was so recent in their cultural memory. They have about as much contact with their homeland as second generation immigrants have with their estranged relatives.Whether the elves of Castrovel and the aiudeen of Golarion are "buddy buddy" is an entirely different question from whether Sovyrian considers Kyonin a part of its territory. It is a frontier march protected by the state's military - it has to be, or else a hostile power would have seized the Sovyrian Stone ages ago.
IIRC: if things get really bad, the plan is to go back to Sovyrian and this time blow up the stone on the way out. Sovyrian is probably paying attention to what happens in Kyonin, but any real military presence would be on the other side of the gate.
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This talk had me go double check Gatewalkers #1, which describes Sovyrian as part of a Castrovel backmatter article... as a place of cities in decline from their ancient grandeur, clinging to traditionalism and scorning the Elves of Golarion as having abandoned both kin and homeland. Sovyrian's military is, in fact, described as "shrinking," in desperate need of outside aid to secure outlying settlements on Castrovelian turf - these guys aren't projecting interplanetary force, they can barely hold their own border provinces.
It also, interestingly, mentions the settlement of Farrowdell (also in Sovyrian) is shared between elven and talking animal citizens, which we can now read as an early teaser for Howl of the Wild making the latter playable. Fun!
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This talk had me go double check Gatewalkers #1, which describes Sovyrian as part of a Castrovel backmatter article... as a place of cities in decline from their ancient grandeur, clinging to traditionalism and scorning the Elves of Golarion as having abandoned both kin and homeland. Sovyrian's military is, in fact, described as "shrinking," in desperate need of outside aid to secure outlying settlements on Castrovelian turf - these guys aren't projecting interplanetary force, they can barely hold their own border provinces.
This is just about how Aiudeen were described in the earliest days of the Pathfinder Campaign Setting, so I anticipate the contrite editorial statements about how this description was also in error.
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This talk had me go double check Gatewalkers #1, which describes Sovyrian as part of a Castrovel backmatter article... as a place of cities in decline from their ancient grandeur, clinging to traditionalism and scorning the Elves of Golarion as having abandoned both kin and homeland. Sovyrian's military is, in fact, described as "shrinking," in desperate need of outside aid to secure outlying settlements on Castrovelian turf - these guys aren't projecting interplanetary force, they can barely hold their own border provinces.This is just about how Aiudeen were described in the earliest days of the Pathfinder Campaign Setting, so I anticipate the contrite editorial statements about how this description was also in error.
The source is far more recent, so unlikely to be an old error.