Venture-Lieutenant, Finland—Turku
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Hi, and welcome!
The access rules can be quite overwhelming at first, and they take some time to get used to. A quick rule of thumb when using Archives of Nethys to search for stuff is the following:
If an item is both Common and marked as "PFS Standard", you can readily use it.
If it's PFS Limited or PFS Restricted, you can't use it unless you have aboon that specifically says you get access to it.
If it's PFS Standard BUT it's uncommon (or Rare), check if the thing has any access conditions: if it has an access condition and you can meet that access condition, you have access and can thus use it.
That's the short version.
Guns and Gears is one of the more complicated books in terms of Access. The exact rules are here:
Character options
Details are important, but generally speaking: Everybody can play a gunslinger (or inventor), and gunslingers have access to nearly all firearms. Ancestral firearms such as goblin guns or the dwarven clan pistol require that you have both access to firearms and you have the relevant ancestry weaponry feat from that ancestry.
So, if you want to be a gunslinger, go ahead! No special hoops you need to jump through. If you want to use guns but you're NOT a gunslinger, you need to be either from a specific region (details in that character options page) or you need purchase a boon (with achievement points that you get from playing, +80 you get from just signing up) that gives you access to some gun.
Some archetypes or weapons may not be available without being from specific regions, details are again on the character options page, under the guns and gears options.
|
Venture-Lieutenant, Finland—Turku
|
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
As to the Best Gun for Sniper - Jezail is one of my favorite guns in the book, but "which gun to use" is mostly about picking the trade-off you want.
Arquebus is probably one of the most powerful options - 150ft range, 1d8 dmg with fatal trait boosting that to 1d12 + an extra die of damage on a critical hit, and kickback gives it +1 damage. Drawback is that it requires 14 str or deploying a bipod or tripod or similar or else it takes -2 to hit. Also weights a bit more than other options at 2 bulk, although that's probably not a huge problem if you have 14 str.
Blunderbuss offers a large "splash" area with the scatter 10ft trait, but has just 40ft range and isn't fatal.
Double Barreled Musket can be fired twice before requiring reload, but has less range (60ft), and smaller damage (1d6, fatal d10) but You can fire both barrels to get it to deal the same damage if need be. Both barrels need to be reloaded separately, though.
Harmona Gun lacks the fatal trait, but has 150ft range and 1d10 dmg and kickback - it deals a slightly more damage than arquebus on a normal hit, but less damage on a crit.
Jezail has a bit less range - but 90ft is still more than plenty - and lacks the kickback trait (so doesn't require 14str, but also does not get +1 dmg), but it has the same 1d8 dmg and fatal d12 as Arquebus when wielded in 2 hands. It can also be wielded in 1 hand when it loses the fatal trait. My favorite.
Those are some of the options a sniper might consider, and then there's also some ancestry weapons.
|
Elves have access to the Mithral Tree, which is a 2-handed rifle (not actually made out of Mithral).
There is a P2 one-shot module called "Head Shot to the Rot" which features four 5th level Gunslinger pre-gens wandering into town...
Sniper, with Mithral Tree
Goblin: applies bomb formulas to individual bullets
Shoot 'n Slash: gun in one hand, knife/sword/bayonet in the other
??? I don't remember. Alas!
|
The Jezail requires an Interact action to shift from one-handed to two-handed, an Interact Action rather than a Release Action to shift from two-handed to one-handed, and an extra action to Reload when wielded two-handed.
In my experience, the Jezail is only popular because either GMs are unfamiliar with the interaction of the Fatal Aim and Reload rules, or the Players conveniently forget them during the moment of combat and treat the weapon as any other firearm.
|
|
Nope. Fatal Aim weapons (just the Jezail, and Piercing Wind) work differently from other firearms.
This entry indicates how many Interact actions it takes to reload such weapons...Reloading a ranged weapon requires a free hand. Switching your grip to free a hand and then to place your hands in the grip necessary to wield the weapon are both included in the actions you spend to reload a weapon.
For nearly every Firearm, the above rules for Reloading apply. Wielding your Arquebus in 2 hands? No problem. You can Release/Reload/Regrip as part of the Arquebus's Reload 1.
But not so with the Jezail:
When you wield the weapon in two hands, it gains the fatal trait with the listed damage die. Holding the weapon underarm stably enough to fire is significantly more complicated than just releasing one hand from the weapon, so to switch between the two grips, you must do so with an Interact action rather than Releasing or as part of reloading.
So whereas you can free up your hand to Reload other two-handed Firearms, the Jezail and Piercing Wind require an additional Interact Action (but only when wielded in two hands).
If you started the round wielding it two-handed, and loaded, your sequence of actions would be Strike => Interact => Reload
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think you're wrong here Nefreet, and have split up the paragraph incorrectly resolting in an incorrect reading.
It’s possible to hold the stock of this weapon under one arm so you can fire it with a single hand as long as the other hand isn’t holding a weapon, shield, or anything else you would need to move and position, to ensure the weapon doesn’t slip out from under your arm. However, if you use both hands, the weapon can make fatal attacks. When you wield the weapon in two hands, it gains the fatal trait with the listed damage die. Holding the weapon underarm stably enough to fire is significantly more complicated than just releasing one hand from the weapon, so to switch between the two grips, you must do so with an Interact action rather than Releasing or as part of reloading.
The weapon is by default a 1 handed weapon, so we start by assuming that and get the rules for wielding it 1 handed:
It’s possible to hold the stock of this weapon under one arm so you can fire it with a single hand as long as the other hand isn’t holding a weapon, shield, or anything else you would need to move and position, to ensure the weapon doesn’t slip out from under your arm.
Then we have the special rules for wielding it in 2 hands
However, if you use both hands, the weapon can make fatal attacks. When you wield the weapon in two hands, it gains the fatal trait with the listed damage die.
Finally it talks about switching between the 2 grips:
Holding the weapon underarm stably enough to fire is significantly more complicated than just releasing one hand from the weapon, so to switch between the two grips, you must do so with an Interact action rather than Releasing or as part of reloading.
---
None of that requires an extra action to reload, it only requires an extra action to swap grips.
So if you're holding it with 2 hands and have just fired using fatal aim: Use the reload action to release, reload and regrip. 1 action no problem. What you can't do is freely switch to the underarm 1 handed grip.
If you're holding it with 1 hand and have just fired: Use the reload action to reload. 1 action no problem. What you can't do is freely switch to the 2 handed grip.
|
|
None of that requires an extra action to reload, it only requires an extra action to swap grips.
And as we know from the Reload rules I've quoted, reloading a two-handed weapon requires swapping grips.
The two sections really mirror each other pretty perfectly. Not much room for ambiguity.
That's the drawback to using a Fatal Aim weapon.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Your interpretation is totally new to me. I believe you that it's out there, but I have never seen it before. I see how there's an argument for it, but I strongly disagree that it's FACT, as I believe you have presented it.
That method ignores the possibility of holding the weapon in 1 hand without tucking it under your other arm. Let me explain how I think it works.
I see 3 ways of handling the weapon.
1: You hold it in 2 hands. It fires via fatal aim.
2: You hold it in 1 hand, tucked with the other arm. It fires normally.
3: You hold it in 1 hand, not tucked. You cannot fire it.
From 1: You could release (2x free) with both hands and drop it. You could release (1x free) with 1 hand and then be in state 3. You could interact(1 action) to tuck it and be in state 2. Reloading, includes the free action to move to state 3 and the interact action to move back to state 1 (Or you could end in 3).
From 2: You could release (1x free) and drop it. You could interact (1 action) to untuck it and swap to state 1 or state 3. Reloading does not require changing state because your other hand is free, you end up in state 2.
From 3: You could release (1x free) and drop it. You could interact(1 action) to grab with your other hand and be in state 1. You could interact(1 action) to tuck it underarm and move to state 2. Reloading includes the interact to grip so you end in state 1 (or could stay in 3 is desired)
While I have not done an exhaustive analysis of Jezail my brief read does not not make it seem overbalanced compared to similar firearms.
For 2 handed, the Arquebus has the same damage and reload, longer range and kickback. (The Jezail has some flexibility, but shorter range)
The d8/range 90 seems possibly a little strong for a 1 handed gun, but it isn't really 1 handed. The other hand can't be "holding a weapon, shield, or anything else you would need to move and position."
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Switching your grip to free a hand and then to place your hands in the grip necessary to wield the weapon are both included in the actions you spend to reload a weapon.
This seems pretty clear. If you are reloading a 2H weapon (which includes crossbows as well as longarms), the action to reload includes removing your hand and putting it back on.
Fatal Aim does not claim this is any different.
Holding the weapon underarm stably enough to fire is significantly more complicated than just releasing one hand from the weapon, so to switch between the two grips, you must do so with an Interact action rather than Releasing or as part of reloading.
This is only talking about changing grips between 2H and 1H in underarm, as far as I can tell. Meaning, while you have to remove your hand while reloading, you cannot use that action to also change grip types. The rules under reloading do state that you can release, reload, and replace your hand all as part of the reloading action. (see above).
If folks are claiming otherwise, what rules are they citing?
|
|
It's in the last sentence. I'll remove the two words that seem to be distracting everyone:
"to switch between the two grips, you must do so with an Interact action rather than as part of reloading."
Everyone agrees that Releasing requires an extra Interact Action (those are the two words I removed).
I'm pointing out that, in the same sentence, we're told you also need an extra Interact Action for Reloading.
This mirrors perfectly the rules for Reloading, where a free action Release is required, and allowed.
Fatal Aim changes that.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Nefreet like to go on a tear occasionally and has noted that he sometimes posts things he doesn't believe are true to make a point.
I'm going to assume anything further he posts on this is trying to get more arguments for the correct ruling and that he doesn't actually believe what he's arguing. I suggest you do the same and ignore his further arguments on this topic.
|
|
Nefreet ... has noted that he sometimes posts things he doesn't believe are true to make a point.
What?
I suppose if you're speaking of Alchemist Formulas being free, that's not really the same thing. Campaign Leadership has stated they don't care if the system gets abused, so I simply repeat their statement.
This, on the other hand, is quite plainly just pointing out the obvious, which apparently isn't as obvious as I would like to believe. When it was explained to me, I went "Ooooh!!" and immediately stopped using the firearm I'd been using.
Certainly didn't think that people would respond to this as "Going on a tear".
It categorically DOES NOT SAY that you have to switch grips to reload.
It quite plainly does.
Reloading a ranged weapon requires a free hand.
How do you get that free hand? You switch grips.
How do you switch grips with a Fatal Aim weapon?
By spending an Interact Action.
Whether you're simply Releasing, or Reloading.
Again, as plainly stated.
Venture-Captain, Wisconsin—Franklin
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
By the way, this is perfectly making my case, referenced in my first post, as to why the weapon is so popular in Society.
Nobody enforces the rules on it.
Outside of Sociy, people ask what's the point of using this weapon, when the action economy is so terrible.
I can't speak for outside my area, but Jezail doesn't even seem to be the most popular gun among the firearms using characters (I think its mostly clan pistols or Arquebus) and there's still a lot more characters with a focus on bows.
As for enforcing the rules:
Holding the weapon underarm stably enough to fire is significantly more complicated than just releasing one hand from the weapon, ~
This seems to the relevant part. If you're using it underarm, all the following applies.
It's a different clause than the "When you wield the weapon in two hands, it gains the fatal trait with the listed damage die."
The layout seems to be
If two handed, then (gain fatal die listed)
If underarm, then (behaves as follows)
If the read the way you say it does, it would be ordered differently. With the reload portion before both the two-handed and underarm descriptions.
|
Venture-Captain, Wisconsin—Franklin
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
But you don't need the extra action when wielding it one-handed.
Only when wielding it two-handed.
All of the mentions of reloading are part of the section on using it 1 handed underarm. You aren't changing to the 1-handed underarm option when reloading if you were using it in two hands.
The reload state has it temporarily in 1 hand while you reload it w/o using an extra action. It is not shifted to the '1 hand underarm state' when you do this.
The state 'underarm' or 'two-handed' is not changed via reloading.
|
Venture-Lieutenant, Finland—Turku
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Ye, never heard of Nefreets interpretation within pathfinder society.
It doesn't take an extra action because you aren't switching your grip to a 1-handed shooting position: You're merely releasing your hand from the 2-handed position to reload it, and then re-gripping it. It doesn't automatically pop from your 2-handed grip to a 1-handed grip - you merely aren't wielding it with enough hands to shoot it. Kinda like a greatsword if you let go of one hand: It's still a 2-handed weapon, you just hold it momentarily in 1 hand.
Wielding 2-handed:
During reload, you're now wielding the weapon in a 2-handed grip but you have only 1 hand on the weapon (and thus you can't shoot it in this configuration because swapping to the 1-handed shooting grip takes an extra action).
Reload finishes, you regrip the weapon (in 2-handed position).
What nefreet claims would result in the following:
Wielding 2-handed:
During reload, you let go 1 hand of the weapon. Since you're now wielding it 1 handed, you need to spend an extra interact action to swap it to a 1-handed position.
Reload finishes. You re-grip weapon with your other hand. However, you're wielding the weapon in a 1-handed grip so you need to spend yet another action to correct your grip to 2-handed one.
The latter is clearly not intended, and is too bad to be true. I'm not sure how nefreet got 2 actions for the latter example instead of 3, since switching to 1 handed would cost an extra action and switching to 2 handed would also cost an extra action.
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
This mirrors perfectly the rules for Reloading, where a free action Release is required, and allowed.
Reload doesn't say that. It specifically doesn't say the release is a free action, it says it is included in the action(s) spent to reload. There isn't a separate free action that would be modified by Fatal Aim, it's all contained within the the action(s) to Reload.
Switching your grip to free a hand and then to place your hands in the grip necessary to wield the weapon are both included in the actions you spend to reload a weapon.
Reloading a firearm with the reload 1 trait isn't ◇Release ◆Reload, it's ◆Reload.
|
Venture-Captain, Wisconsin—Franklin
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Okay. So let's go over some super simple questions.
1) How many hands does your average character have?
If they were Hecatoncheires the rules would work the same. No part of reloading the firearm forces you to put it under your arm to do so. No where in the rules does it say reloading a weapon with fatal aim from a two handed position forces it under your arm. We run rules as written. No where is it written its changed. It is written in the property that reloading specifically does change anything. Why overcomplicate it?
|
Venture-Captain, Online—VTT
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I've never seen the 'extra actions' interpretation in any actual play inside or outside Society. The only place I've ever seen it mentioned before was arguments without any actual resolution in theory crafting threads on Reddit that involved no actual gameplay at all... I think it's pretty hard to argue the default is;
Nobody enforces the rules on it.
Outside of Sociy, people ask what's the point of using this weapon, when the action economy is so terrible.
That feels like it lacks evidence to back it up.
|
Venture-Lieutenant, Finland—Turku
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Holding the weapon underarm stably enough to fire is significantly more complicated than just releasing one hand from the weapon, so to switch between the two grips, you must do so with an Interact action rather than Releasing or as part of reloading.
Let's leave the reload out of the question and say you want to drink a potion instead.
How it's supposed to work and how it's currently run in every game I've seen/heard about:
Step 1: Release a hand from Jezail. (free)
Step 2: Grab a potion (1 action)
Step 3: Drink the potion (second action)
Step 4: Re-grap the jezail. It's still in 2-handed grasp and you continue firing it in the 2-handed fatal aim way. (third action)
During step 2 and step 3 you're holding the weapon as if it were a 2-handed weapon, and but since you only have 1 hand on it, you can't shoot it. This is what the fatal aim rules mean: Just because you let go with 1 hand, doesn't mean that the weapon automatically switches to 1-handed shooting grip. If you wanted to use it in 1-handed shooting grip, you needed to spend an extra action to change between the two grips. The rule isn't saying "You have to spend an action to release one hand", the rule is saying "You need to spend an action to change to 1 handed grip".
It also means that if you're holding it in 1-handed grip and you reload it, you can't move it into 2-handed grip as part of that reload: You need to spend an extra action. The point however is that if you're holding it 2-handed and reload it, it stays 2-handed, instead of somehow magically forcing you to spend an actionto switch it into a one-handed grip while you reload.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Okay. So let's go over some super simple questions.
1) How many hands does your average character have?
I'm not disputing that the PC releases a hand, reloads, and regrips when using the Reload action. What I'm saying is that nowhere in there is a free-action release that could be modified by the Fatal Aim property. It's not a free action because it's contained within the Reload action.