Tallow Ooze Weirdness

[catdragon]

So here's a quandary. There is a creature called a tallow ooze (Creature 11). It has this ability:

Quote:

Greasy Seepage (aura) 10 feet. Any creature that starts its turn in or enters a square in the area must attempt a DC 30 Acrobatics check to Balance. A creature that takes a Step doesn’t need to roll this check.

So if a character is in the aura he must make a Acrobatics check to Balance. Does that take the character's first action, or is it an action that happens automatically at the start of the character's turn?

Since it is "Acrobatics check to Balance," do we apply the critical success/success/failure/critical failure conditions from the Acrobatics check to Balance? If the answer is yes, then does a failure/critical failure end the turn for the character?

It would be greatly appreciated if someone could shed some light on interaction.

[Guntermench]

It seems to be an action tax yes, and I would assume if they crit fail their turn does indeed end. Nasty buggers.

[Castilliano]

I don't think it burns a PC's action automatically. It'd have to be something like "creature must use first action making Balance check DC 30 or taking a Step" because losing an action isn't something you bury in interpretation. And then you can move too? That doesn't seem right at all (though it's kind of funny if intentionally trying to say PCs are scooting around on the slippery surface). There have been other issues with Balance being an action, such as checks mid-Stride. I'd put this in that category.

Yes, you could fall and lose your turn. I think it's kind of mandatory for martials (heck, most everybody) to take Acrobatics (or Untrained Improvisation) simply to handle such terrain issues. I dislike that prone creatures still have to make such checks! (Not that I'd rule that way.)

[SuperBidi]

catdragon wrote:

So here's a quandary. There is a creature called a tallow ooze (Creature 11). It has this ability:

Quote:

Greasy Seepage (aura) 10 feet. Any creature that starts its turn in or enters a square in the area must attempt a DC 30 Acrobatics check to Balance. A creature that takes a Step doesn’t need to roll this check.

So if a character is in the aura he must make a Acrobatics check to Balance. Does that take the character's first action, or is it an action that happens automatically at the start of the character's turn?

Since it is "Acrobatics check to Balance," do we apply the critical success/success/failure/critical failure conditions from the Acrobatics check to Balance? If the answer is yes, then does a failure/critical failure end the turn for the character?

It would be greatly appreciated if someone could shed some light on interaction.

It's obviously a mistake. You have to read "starts a move" and not "starts its turn".

Because otherwise you'd move for free (as there's no action cost involved) in case of a success and only suffer from it on a critical failure (and if you are not Trained in Acrobatics you can be permanently unable to act as you can chain critical failures with no chance of success).

[AVGDamage]

I don't think it is obviously a mistake, though I agree there are some odd results when thinking about the possible outcomes.

I want to read it piecewise. So first a creature starts it's turn in the affected area, it must make an acrobatics check to balance. It doesn't say spend an action, so I'd say this check to balance is free. Here is the first problem though, the balancing action involves movement, but the first part is happening before a creature spends any actions. So this becomes gray, but I think this is how I'd run it and is the intention. On a critical failure, the creature falls and loses it's turn. The rest of the outcomes are wonky because the creature hasn't spent an actions yet and may not choose to move. So I'd say on a failure the creature loses an action, but can generally spend the other two actions as they please. Though if they enter another square of the affected area they must take the balance action per the "or enters a square in the area". On a success, no action is spent, and I'd say for the creature first movement action the area around the creature is difficult terrain, and on a critical success no action is spent and terrain is treated as normal for their first movement. This assumes the creature wants to move. If they succeed, and don't want to o move, great, they get 3 actions. I think if the creates uses a whole stride, and wants to take a second movement into an affected square they trigger the "or enters a square in the area" a second time.

Now what happens when a creature enters the area. I think this is a little easier to parse. Once they hit the area they can spend an action to balance and apply the results as normal.

I think the part about taking a step only applies to the "or enters a square in the area" part. So if a creature wants to step instead of stride, they can avoid using the balance action.

[Guntermench]

I'd probably run it that it eats the extra actions. Start your turn in the aura, your first action has to be Balance (though I see the argument for a move action in the aura). Moving into the aura requires a Balance action, even if you were already striding.

[shroudb]

i also dont feel it's a mistake.

the way i see it it's 2 parts:

a)start a turn inside the aura:
you roll for Balance. That costs an action.

Basically, this represents your character trying to not fall on his bottom as he spends his time in the aura.

As a "bonus", if you make the check you can also move around said grease. That part of movement is included in the original Balance check.

In my mind, that seems like someone that trying to stay stable within the grease and spends the time (hence action) to do so. He can do so greatly (crit success so in the same time it took him to stay stable he can actually move around easily), ok (success, so in the time it took him to stay stable he can somewhat move), badly (failure, he stays on his feet but can't move), or fail miserably and fall.

b)enters the area by means other than stepping: again need to balance or fall. This is more clear cut, and this one also has a way to mitigate it (stepping in)

[SuperBidi]

shroudb wrote:

a)start a turn inside the aura:
you roll for Balance. That costs an action.

Except it doesn't cost an action. You also have to roll if you are already on the floor, which means that someone who isn't Trained in Acrobatics is permastunned.

Balance is used during movement. If you start your turn inside grease or an unstable area you don't have to roll for Balance.

You only manage to make it look fine through massive houseruling.

[shroudb]

SuperBidi wrote:

shroudb wrote:

a)start a turn inside the aura:
you roll for Balance. That costs an action.

Except it doesn't cost an action. You also have to roll if you are already on the floor, which means that someone who isn't Trained in Acrobatics is permastunned.

Balance is used during movement. If you start your turn inside grease or an unstable area you don't have to roll for Balance.

You only manage to make it look fine through massive houseruling.

citation needed.

cause i have a very clear line that says "start your turn inside the aura, roll for Balance".

and Balance IS an action.

it doesnt matter if "other" effects dont make you roll, this one specifically does.

p.s. not a single houserule was used.

i used strict RAW.

[gesalt]

shroudb wrote:

SuperBidi wrote:

shroudb wrote:

a)start a turn inside the aura:
you roll for Balance. That costs an action.

Except it doesn't cost an action. You also have to roll if you are already on the floor, which means that someone who isn't Trained in Acrobatics is permastunned.

Balance is used during movement. If you start your turn inside grease or an unstable area you don't have to roll for Balance.

You only manage to make it look fine through massive houseruling.

citation needed.

cause i have a very clear line that says "start your turn inside the aura, roll for Balance".

and Balance IS an action.

it doesnt matter if "other" effects dont make you roll, this one specifically does.

p.s. not a single houserule was used.

i used strict RAW.

Actually you roll for Balance before regaining any actions or reactions

Step 1: Start Your Turn wrote:

Do anything else that is specified to happen at the start of your turn, such as regaining Hit Points from fast healing or regeneration.

The last step of starting your turn is always the same.
Regain your 3 actions and 1 reaction.

Much like tome thaumaturge's forced recall knowledge, it is completed before actions are ever restored. The only question after that is if somebody who has already fallen can continue to fall into permastun.

[Guntermench]

That's a good point on the rolling before you get actions back.

[David Schwartz]

Speaking as the designer (but not in any official capacity), Greasy Seepage and Residual Grease are supposed to act as the area and target versions of the grease spell (respectively). This should hopefully remove any confusion, and also make it a little fairer on the PCs.

[SuperBidi]

David Schwartz wrote:

Speaking as the designer (but not in any official capacity), Greasy Seepage and Residual Grease are supposed to act as the area and target versions of the grease spell (respectively). This should hopefully remove any confusion, and also make it a little fairer on the PCs.

Thanks a lot but it's still a bit unclear to me:

Is the check at the beginning of your turn supposed to be a Reflex save to avoid falling prone like if Grease was applied in the area? Or are the checks to Balance limited to situations where you move through or inside the aura like the Balance checks to move through a Grease area?

[Guntermench]

It sounds like it behaves as though the Grease spell is cast at the start of every turn.

Grease wrote:

Area All solid ground in the area is covered with grease. Each creature standing on the greasy surface must succeed at a Reflex save or an Acrobatics check against your spell DC or fall prone. Creatures using an action to move onto the greasy surface during the spell's duration must attempt either a Reflex save or an Acrobatics check to Balance. A creature that Steps or Crawls doesn't have to attempt a check or save.

So if I understand correctly it's an Acrobatics check at the start of your turn, as if some had just cast Grease, the "each creature standing" sentence, or you fall prone. Then the same if you move into the area unless you Step, though it notably doesn't exclude Crawling in this case. No free movement, just mostly (but missing an important bit) copied from Grease.

[shroudb]

Yeah, the designer's intent does change things quite a bit.

Basically, it doesn't cost actions, but even on a fail you fall down. (whereas in Balance check you need a crit fail to fall). But also falling down doesn't cost the rest of your turn. If I'm reading it correctly.

That makes things more "balanced" in the sense that there's less dramatic swings based on the roll.

[David Schwartz]

SuperBidi wrote:

Is the check at the beginning of your turn supposed to be a Reflex save to avoid falling prone like if Grease was applied in the area? Or are the checks to Balance limited to situations where you move through or inside the aura like the Balance checks to move through a Grease area?

I'd treat it as a pre-existing grease spell, and ignore the bit about the start of turn.

[SuperBidi]

David Schwartz wrote:

SuperBidi wrote:

Is the check at the beginning of your turn supposed to be a Reflex save to avoid falling prone like if Grease was applied in the area? Or are the checks to Balance limited to situations where you move through or inside the aura like the Balance checks to move through a Grease area?

I'd treat it as a pre-existing grease spell, and ignore the bit about the start of turn.

Thanks for your answer. Even if it's not "official", I think it'll help a lot those who fail to see how to play it. Knowing the intent is very useful for us (at least for me)!