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Normally, when underwater, bludgeoning/slashing melee attacks take a -2 penalty, bludgeoning/slashing ranged attacks automatically miss, and fire actions can't be used at all.
The Gather Element action specifically lets a kineticist gather fire and use fire impulses underwater, but it doesn't do anything to help use water impulses underwater. A fire Elemental Blast can be used with no penalty underwater since it doesn't deal bludgeoning/slashing damage, but a Water Elemental blast takes the full penalties.
There's a level 4 water impulse feat, Return to the Sea, that lets a creature ignore the underwater penalties for bludgeoning/slashing attacks. Not only do you need to invest in that feat, it also takes 3 actions to use.
Please either give water impulses a general exception to the underwater fighting penalties, or update the Water trait to allow attacks with that trait to ignore underwater fighting penalties.
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I think they're talking about Aquatic Combat and these lines:
That's the one. It's often circumvented by a creature with the Amphibious trait.
Speaking of, Return to the Sea should also probably grant the Amphibious trait.
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Yeah, from the wording of the ability, I think water blasts would work underwater but still be subject to the normal Aquatic Combat rules pertaining to bludgeoning damage. So auto-miss ranged attacks and a penalty to melee attacks.
Which makes Fire Kineticists better at blasting underwater by default compared to Water Kineticists... that feels very wrong.
[Also, is it just me or do some of the core kineticist abilities seem to be written with Fire Kineticists in mind? Gather Element specifically makes fire kineticists not just usable in water, but better than all other kinetic blasts in water. Extract Element seems highly situational and nearly unusable - except for Fire Kineticists since only their elementals are commonly immune to their blast type. And even something like Elemental Weapon is only particularly unique for Fire Kineticists since it forces the damage type to match the blast (meaning rocks can never be sharp or pointy).]
Yeah Elemental Resistance and Extract Element both seem most useful for Fire. And yeah Elemental Weapon makes no sense with the damage line except in the case of Fire. It would be different if we had Cold or Electricity blasts.
That said the Fire Kineticists seem to have some really poor damage options compared to the other elements. Which was also weird.
A creature submerged in water as 5 fire resistance, as a point against aquatic pyrokineticists. But that falls off later in the game and the other penalties do not.
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"Use it even in environments where this normally wouldn’t be possible." Bludgeoning attacks are already possible underwater, just not very good. Nothing in the ability says it removes all penalties normally associated with the attack, just makes the normally impossible actions possible.
I'd expect the earth & air kinetic blasts to suffer from the aquatic combat penalties barring any specific text otherwise - so it seems reasonable to expect this applies to water too with the current wording (though I don't think it should).
Same thing if a barrier of wind was imposing a penalty on all ranged attacks - I wouldn't rule that gather elements makes all kineticists immune to this penalty without some other specific text. The attack is still possible, the penalty being imposed doesn't alter that.
(meaning rocks can never be sharp or pointy).
Heh. Apparently, Paizo's folks have never seen a macuahitl. :-)
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And even something like Elemental Weapon is only particularly unique for Fire Kineticists since it forces the damage type to match the blast (meaning rocks can never be sharp or pointy).]
Well, it does mean you can make like... bludgeoning earth whips or slashing air hammers.
I don’t think fire blasts do work underwater. Just gather and related abilities that don’t interact with underwater combat rules.
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I think they're talking about Aquatic Combat and these linesSure, and I quote once more:
'You can Gather an Element, hold it, and use it even in environments where this normally wouldn’t be possible.'
So it is possible to use water bludgeoning (and slashing if it exists) underwater (obviously not automatically missing with them).You can make strikes underwater already.
They just auto miss if they're ranged.
Well, if you guys think that auto-missing attacks are possible to use, I can't add anything else.
I guess the designers really should make this more clear then.
it definitely needs another pass. possible and feasible are different, and while possible water blasts aren't feasible underwater.