| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Those "True Nature of Man" stories are always neat.
and glad we got a little more Ortega
Ortegas was certainly due her time in the sun. Great episode!
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Very good episode.
That poor man was going insane for a year or so.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Yes! Solid all around and loved Ortegas' big damn moment particularly. Bonus shout out to the old man for being a well developed one-episode NPC.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
not sure if "the planet made me do it" is a rock solid defense in star trek court martial or just "yeah yeah heard it all before..."
Given the yeoman recovered his initial memory seemingly early on and used his knowledge to become king--and knowing the ore in the fortress would protect and heal people, he knowingly and willingly chose to subjugate people continue to force them to endure the radiation outside so he could live in luxury, I don't think he has a leg to stand on. Trauma can push you to extreme limits (as the episode demonstrates) but it doesn't excuse becoming a whiny dictator. And while he might claim prime directive for not changing the people's way of life, the fact that he built phasers for his guards blows that defense right out of the water.
Given the yeoman recovered his initial memory seemingly early on and used his knowledge to become king--and knowing the ore in the fortress would protect and heal people, he knowingly and willingly chose to subjugate people continue to force them to endure the radiation outside so he could live in luxury, I don't think he has a leg to stand on. Trauma can push you to extreme limits (as the episode demonstrates) but it doesn't excuse becoming a whiny dictator. And while he might claim prime directive for not changing the people's way of life, the fact that he built phasers for his guards blows that defense right out of the water.
I don't know. The episode also showed that noone on the planet was thinking right after a few minutes of exposure(a bit of a hole on the plot), and it may have been worse for people newly arrived. I think he was a dictator but not a whiney one per se- he FELT his mind going, and I have had a ringside seat on multiple occasions for just how horrifying that can be.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Given the yeoman recovered his initial memory seemingly early on and used his knowledge to become king--and knowing the ore in the fortress would protect and heal people, he knowingly and willingly chose to subjugate people continue to force them to endure the radiation outside so he could live in luxury, I don't think he has a leg to stand on. Trauma can push you to extreme limits (as the episode demonstrates) but it doesn't excuse becoming a whiny dictator. And while he might claim prime directive for not changing the people's way of life, the fact that he built phasers for his guards blows that defense right out of the water.I don't know. The episode also showed that noone on the planet was thinking right after a few minutes of exposure(a bit of a hole on the plot), and it may have been worse for people newly arrived. I think he was a dictator but not a whiney one per se- he FELT his mind going, and I have had a ringside seat on multiple occasions for just how horrifying that can be.
First, there is a difference between not thinking right and making an active choice to do harm. I can say a hurtful thing in a tense moment, and unfortunately I have to acknowledge that I have the capacity to be hurtful with my words, but I can also assure you that tension doesn't make me suddenly want to be a dictator or a murderer.
Moreover, in the case of how this affliction affected people on the show, everyone under the tension of losing their minds was still fundamentally themselves, albeit a stressed out version of themselves. Uhura was still level headed and went to seek help right away (while La'an, being more stubborn, denied anything was wrong for longer). Erica had a bit of a freakout but quickly went to problem solving and regained her spunk as soon as she saw a way clear. Spock remained reliant upon logic even though we've seen he can also experience emotions intensely. Pike was deductive (he quickly realizes he has not always been a quarry worker) and always motivated by protecting his own, and even at his worst moment, he was desperate and angry because he wanted to save La'an--not because he was embittered by his experience or just deep down was a killer.
Secondly, the story shows that your memories and personality return swiftly once you are blocked from the radiation. Pike turns back to his rational and compassionate self within seconds of the shielding taking effect and spares Zac, even while Zac is still laughing at him for so desperately wanting to help La'an. The affected Enterprise crew quickly recover and become their old selves as well. The old man, who lived affected by the radiation ever since the asteroid hit them, and who arguably was far more traumatized than Zac (including traumatized by his loss of his family) was kindly while he had forgotten who he was and was equally kindly afterward.
Hence, the evidence the show provides is the radiation alone cannot be responsible for making someone a sadistic slave lord, which is what Zac was.
Zac went through the trauma of being left behind (by mistake) and through the Forgetting, but clearly from the position he was in by the time they get to him, his memory had been healed months prior to the Enterprise's arrival. He had not only time to recover from his trauma but do whatever he could to improve not only his own circumstances but others who had suffered like him (as Pike sought to do with the old man). And fully knowing how traumatic the Forgetting was, and having the scientific understanding that the ore in the fortress walls not only shielded people from the radiation but also healed them he looked at the people with whom he, moments ago, had been suffering alongside, he, completely his own self and fully aware of his memory and actions, he actively made a choice to make them his slaves, forcing them to continue to endure the trauma he complained of so he could literally live like a king. Moreover, he defied his own people's policies in the worst way by building actual f+!!ing phaser rifles for his bronze age servants and used them to enforce his authority. He could have instead chosen to take everyone into the giant fortress, heal them, and teach them the utopic socialist ideals of Starfleet and lived in harmony with the other people, built relationships, had a happy future. Instead he enslaved a helpless, poisoned people so he could live in the lap of luxury in solitude, and when rescue appeared, he chose to torture them rather than take the easier route home.
If Pike was able to refrain from killing Zac--who, I will remind you, was in his right mind and choosing to laugh at Pike desperately trying to save La'an rather than help him--within seconds of recovering his memory, Zac's actions over the course of MONTHS after he recovered his cannot be defended by what he initially endured, no matter how traumatic it was.
Finally, we can be understanding of why someone might do a terrible thing, but someone who enslaves, kills, and perpetuates violence needs to be held accountable for their actions. Yes, they should also be treated for their mental illness if they are willing, but that should be part of the accountability, not the alternative to it.
P.S. Yes, I at the very least get to call him whiny when he goes literally from laughing at Pike's expense when he is desperate to save someone's life and won't tell him how to save them, to suddenly nasally crying and pleading for his life as soon as a phaser is turned on him. That's not a traumatized man, that's a whiny, selfish piece of s#~% who will do anything to hurt anyone else as long as it benefits him and he can get away with it.
Edited to add further: When Zac tells us what an AWFUL time he's had of things, he's doing it while sitting in the comfort of his castle, his guards holding the phasers he built at his former crew who are apologizing sincerely for what happened and offering to take him home. He clearly remembers at that point who he is and what's going on, and he is clearly living a comfortable life while the people outside suffer. When he talks about how horribly he felt and how traumatized he was and how that is why he can't forgive Pike, I don't think he can be taken at face value. We can believe he had a rough time in the past, but that doesn't account for everything that is occurring in the moment. He's an excellent example of an unreliable narrator.
First off, the mission briefing at the beginning of the episode establishes that Zac was left behind FIVE YEARS AGO.
Rigel is stated to only be observable in very specific long range sensor windows.
So Zac has not recovered over a period of months, he did so over a period of years on an inhospitable planet that is constantly bombarding him with radiation, even if the walls of the castle deaden the effects on his long term memory.
AS for "building phaser rifles" we have literally no indication that he did so. He claims that the box of Starfleet gear is all that he has, and it is basically a mid sized pelican case.
Nowhere in the episode does he claim to have built them, and Pike's assumption is that they were left behind as they fled the planet during the initial away mission.
I missed the dialogue that said it was five years ago, thanks for the correction. Amending to saying that he had five years to establish himself as a slave master over the local population rather than help them, heal from his initial trauma, and build relationships with others, rather than a few months makes him look worse in my eyes. (Again, I'm not believing him when he's living safe in his castle that he is constantly bombarded, and the rapidity with which Pike recovered once he returned to the castle reinforces that belief. Moreover, the existence of the old man shows that the radiation itself does not deprive a person of empathy or kindness, so it alone cannot be to blame for disordered behavior.)
I do recall a line of dialogue where he explicitly said he used his knowledge to arm his guards or establish his position or something, hence my assumption that he built or fixed the phasers. IIRC phasers don't have an endless power supply (particularly not in this time period) so even if he didn't build them he'd've had to maintain them, especially over the course of five years.
If getting abandoned on an island can change Robinson Crusoe or Oliver Queen; if getting abandoned on a planet can make Khan more revenge driven - then why must abandoning one of the lowest tier Starfleet crewman have had no effect on the nature of this character?
The lowest guy on the totem poll who basically serves as Pike’s assistant was left on a planet full of violent Bronze Age warriors and had his memories stripped away. Presumably he then had to fight his way as a Kalar back to the palace to get his memories back to THEN use his knowledge to take control. But sure, deep down he must always have been a terrible person because… reasons.
First, there is a difference between not thinking right and making an active choice to do harm. I can say a hurtful thing in a tense moment, and unfortunately I have to acknowledge that I have the capacity to be hurtful with my words, but I can also assure you that tension doesn't make me suddenly want to be a dictator or a murderer.Given the yeoman recovered his initial memory seemingly early on and used his knowledge to become king--and knowing the ore in the fortress would protect and heal people, he knowingly and willingly chose to subjugate people continue to force them to endure the radiation outside so he could live in luxury, I don't think he has a leg to stand on. Trauma can push you to extreme limits (as the episode demonstrates) but it doesn't excuse becoming a whiny dictator. And while he might claim prime directive for not changing the people's way of life, the fact that he built phasers for his guards blows that defense right out of the water.I don't know. The episode also showed that noone on the planet was thinking right after a few minutes of exposure(a bit of a hole on the plot), and it may have been worse for people newly arrived. I think he was a dictator but not a whiney one per se- he FELT his mind going, and I have had a ringside seat on multiple occasions for just how horrifying that can be.
A fair observation. But when your mind is starting to go, truly go in the fashion I am familiar with, people can truly become other people. Someone else entirely. Because the person we have known isn't there anymore- not due to any moral failing, but because then building blocks of their personality are no longer present. Their mind is working with what is left. It's why I only watched the Obi Wan series once- Vader's last quote frightened and haunted me.
Moreover, in the case of how this affliction affected people on the show, everyone under the tension of losing their minds was still fundamentally themselves, albeit a stressed out version of themselves. Uhura was still level headed and went to seek help right away (while La'an, being more stubborn, denied anything was wrong for longer). Erica had a bit of a freakout but quickly went to problem solving and regained her spunk as soon as she saw a way clear. Spock remained reliant upon logic even though we've seen he can also experience emotions intensely. Pike was deductive (he quickly realizes he has not always been a quarry worker) and always motivated by protecting his own, and even at his worst moment, he was desperate and angry because he wanted to save La'an--not because he was embittered by his experience or just deep down was a killer.
I take exception to this not because of anything you said, but because this is a common trope in storytelling- the idea that someone deep down never changes because no matter the situation they will always be [insert positive traits here]. TBI simply doesn't work that way. And it sucks.
Secondly, the story shows that your memories and personality return swiftly once you are blocked from the radiation. Pike turns back to his rational and compassionate self within seconds of the shielding taking effect and spares Zac, even while Zac is still laughing at him for so desperately wanting to help La'an. The affected Enterprise crew quickly recover and become their old selves as well. The old man, who lived affected by the radiation ever since the asteroid hit them, and who arguably was far more traumatized than Zac (including traumatized by his loss of his family) was kindly while he had forgotten who he was and was equally kindly afterward.
The only thing I can say here is that this is an hour long broadcast show- of course everyone is going to go "back to normal"(or have a mcguffim that has the same effect) at the end. It's super tropey along with the fact that they cannot afford to have anyone change due to what happened during a "everyone's crazy" episode. Hell, Lower Decks lampoons this multiple times during the show.
Hence, the evidence the show provides is the radiation alone cannot be responsible for making someone a sadistic slave lord, which is what Zac was.
I would argue it shows that anyone can lose it under truly disheartening circumstances with something that can wipe away the building blocks of your mind with a few minutes of exposure. But we'll go more into that a bit later.
Zac went through the trauma of being left behind (by mistake) and through the Forgetting, but clearly from the position he was in by the time they get to him, his memory had been healed months prior to the Enterprise's arrival. He had not only time to recover from his trauma but do whatever he could to improve not only his own circumstances but others who had suffered like him (as Pike sought to do with the old man).
The kind of recovery you are discussing here occurs best with the aid of a mental health professional. It can happen on its own but that is incredibly rare. From his perspective he was abandoned. There was no way for him to know this was an accident, and to be fair to the character should be viewed from that lens, not that Pike picked a whole bouquet of oopsy daisies.
And fully knowing how traumatic the Forgetting was, and having the scientific understanding that the ore in the fortress walls not only shielded people from the radiation but also healed them he looked at the people with whom he, moments ago, had been suffering alongside, he, completely his own self and fully aware of his memory and actions, he actively made a choice to make them his slaves, forcing them to continue to endure the trauma he complained of so he could literally live like a king.
The whole living like a king thing(complete with crown) struck me as a bad call back to TOS style artistic choices as well as monochromatic morality. But that may be me being a bit critical. Just a bit. Lol.
More seriously, we don't know how long it took him in practicality- and I stress practicality in every sense- to understand that this stuff shields people from the braim scramblies. He could have lost his mind and memory multiple times before learning the possibility and even then, trial and error would take a toll on his mind. That kind of off and on again memory loss is going to take a toll on someone. I do NOT want to see what his MRI looks like.
Moreover, he defied his own people's policies in the worst way by building actual f$@%ing phaser rifles for his bronze age servants and used them to enforce his authority. He could have instead chosen to take everyone into the giant fortress, heal them, and teach them the utopic socialist ideals of Starfleet and lived in harmony with the other people, built relationships, had a happy future. Instead he enslaved a helpless, poisoned people so he could live in the lap of luxury in solitude, and when rescue appeared, he chose to torture them rather than take the easier route home.
I want to agree with this. It is what should have happened. However, I think that between learning the ins and outs of how this memory stuff works, having only a handful of Federation tech(and not the best stuff- I believe the show has shown that making phasers is quite easy for a single man at the standard level of techology for the setting, making replicators and holodeck style stuff is INCREDIBLY difficult for one person and they may not have even reached that level of technology on the show yet, original series had the holodeck planet episode and showed that kirk and company couldn't handle it; not sure about replicator technology availability at that time in Star Trek) and having to do it all by himself is too much for any one person. I agree he chose the easy route to an extent. But I don't think he would have survived on his own long enough with what he had to pull it off. If there were other people from his civilization there with more technology to pool? Maybe, odds are MUCH better. But a single man on his own? No, he's going to go completely insane and we are going to see flavors of what we saw in this episode.
I will end by stating that if we are all a finite number of souls inhabiting an infinite number of bodies, and humanity progresses to the point that Starfleet or its equivalent is a reality, and I am sentient during this time period and join up(I wanna fly the ship/make the ship go, also GREEN WOMEN YES PLEASE), open my Basic Starfleet Ethics Course Manual PADD, check the authors section, and a descendent of the DeathQuaker line is NOT named there, I will be INCREDIBLY disappointed.
Freehold DM, it sounds like you were interpreting the "radiation" in the story as allegorical for some form of dementia or real life neurological damage. Moreover you are relating to Yeoman Zac as a representative of those who suffer such conditions. I'm also getting a sense from your post that you have deeply personal reasons for relating to the story in this way, so I am not going to further dig into/line by line respond to your argument as I have no desire or interest in inadvertently dismissing or disrespecting those personal experiences you have had.
By way of explanation for my point of view, I was interpreting the story as more of a commentary on what human nature can look like, in its many forms, when stripped from experience. I was not associating the condition with real life brain damage, given the title of "among the lotus eaters" which suggests a magical situation (akin to the mystical plant in the Odyssey) rather than indicative of something that could really happen to people (after all, they could just do a story about someone with a traumatic brain injury if they wanted to go that route). I was interpreting Yeoman Zac as an individual with a personality disorder, who blames an environmental circumstance and others' actions rather than self-examines or self-improves to make a situation better for himself when he has, technically, the power to do so. And indeed I have my own personal experiences for why that's why I might get that out of the story. All of which is to say that "reader response" (or in this case "viewer response") can vastly inform interpretation of text as always, and it is always fascinating to me how different people can see the same story very differently.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I will end by stating that if we are all a finite number of souls inhabiting an infinite number of bodies, and humanity progresses to the point that Starfleet or its equivalent is a reality, and I am sentient during this time period and join up(I wanna fly the ship/make the ship go, also GREEN WOMEN YES PLEASE), open my Basic Starfleet Ethics Course Manual PADD, check the authors section, and a descendent of the DeathQuaker line is NOT named there, I will be INCREDIBLY disappointed.
Should have responded to this as well, and that is incredibly kind of you. Thank you for the compliment. :) Likewise, I would hope you, yours, and your spirits continue to serve as the example of compassion you so clearly express.
Alas, I have (and shall have) no direct descendants (by choice), and if my nieces' potential progeny remain Quaker, it's unlikely they'll be writing documentation for a military organization, but you never know. Of course you never know who I'll be reincarnated into. ;)
Freehold DM, it sounds like you were interpreting the "radiation" in the story as allegorical for some form of dementia or real life neurological damage. Moreover you are relating to Yeoman Zac as a representative of those who suffer such conditions. I'm also getting a sense from your post that you have deeply personal reasons for relating to the story in this way, so I am not going to further dig into/line by line respond to your argument as I have no desire or interest in inadvertently dismissing or disrespecting those personal experiences you have had.
By way of explanation for my point of view, I was interpreting the story as more of a commentary on what human nature can look like, in its many forms, when stripped from experience. I was not associating the condition with real life brain damage, given the title of "among the lotus eaters" which suggests a magical situation (akin to the mystical plant in the Odyssey) rather than indicative of something that could really happen to people (after all, they could just do a story about someone with a traumatic brain injury if they wanted to go that route). I was interpreting Yeoman Zac as an individual with a personality disorder, who blames an environmental circumstance and others' actions rather than self-examines or self-improves to make a situation better for himself when he has, technically, the power to do so. And indeed I have my own personal experiences for why that's why I might get that out of the story. All of which is to say that "reader response" (or in this case "viewer response") can vastly inform interpretation of text as always, and it is always fascinating to me how different people can see the same story very differently.
An EXCELLENT catch, and one that I certainly missed. I maintain that you are being hard on this fictional character, but I also know you maintain high standards for everyone(there is a character in one of the Avatar The Last Airbender audio books that I believe is you writ firebendy), so if there is justice in this Strange New World, someone like you will be part of this man's tribunal.
Any halfway valid defense attorney would point out that a palace of meteorite rock , with windows, assembled by a bunch of amnesiac bronze age locals , was unlikely to be 100% effective against radiation that penetrated the best shields in the fleet in minutes. Nor can you necessarily extrapolate from the brief exposure suffered by the landing party to the long term effects suffered by Yeoman Zak, both before and after making his way into the palace.
Starfleet could test those assumptions, but it would be highly unethical to put 100 or so humans into the same situation and see what happened. Even then, there's no guarantee that Yeoman Zak wasn't especially susceptable to the radiation, in much the same manner 999 humans can eat peanuts with no problem but the 1,000th will keel over dead.
Sentence: The finest Club fed the federation has, lots of counseling, followed by a lifelong ban on first contact situations.
I was trying to figure out how they'd even build a palace to get their memories. Then it occured to me. Oh right. It's a literal memory palace. Like the Akashic records.
Any halfway valid defense attorney would point out that a palace of meteorite rock , with windows, assembled by a bunch of amnesiac bronze age locals , was unlikely to be 100% effective against radiation that penetrated the best shields in the fleet in minutes. Nor can you necessarily extrapolate from the brief exposure suffered by the landing party to the long term effects suffered by Yeoman Zak, both before and after making his way into the palace.
But you can extrapolate it from the other residents of the planet, who are not sociopathic. From a narrative interpretive perspective (not a scientific or medical analysis), my read is the writers put the old man there to show that the radiation does not necessarily lead an originally decent person to become harmful.
If your analysis is from a POV that the radiation is a literal brain damage causer, yes, different people could react differently--but if it were, people would not recover so quickly. Hence my interpretation it is essentially space magic.
I think the interpetation that it causes real, long lasting damage is an interesting one, and it causes a lot more narrative problems if that interpretation is correct. Perhaps I am being too kind to the writers by giving them the benefit of the doubt they are not trying to push for cruel and unusual punishment to brain damage victims?
Sentence: The finest Club fed the federation has, lots of counseling, followed by a lifelong ban on first contact situations.
Yes, at any rate, especially since we just saw a Starfleet Tribunal in action and making a ruling that was fair (if indicative of more change needed in society), we can agree he will probably be treated fairly by the justice system.
I was trying to figure out how they'd even build a palace to get their memories. Then it occured to me. Oh right. It's a literal memory palace. Like the Akashic records.
That's a cool interpretation. In the story, I would have thought the fortress was built before the asteroid hit, and just happened to be made of something that shield the residents from its effects, which added to the society's existing stratification. But symbolically it could still stand for that.
But you can extrapolate it from the other residents of the planet, who are not sociopathic.
Not really, because the other residents of the planet were residents of the planet and were not marooned there, only to forget why before clawing their way into a leadership position to take the palace and recover their memories.
It also feels a little quick to give a psychological diagnosis to a character we see in exactly two scenes.
That's a cool interpretation. In the story, I would have thought the fortress was built before the asteroid hit, and just happened to be made of something that shield the residents from its effects, which added to the society's existing stratification. But symbolically it could still stand for that.
The palace was built out of the asteroid itself, as confirmed by Yeoman Zac's dialogue with Pike when Pike returns to the palace.
Still dying over dial a deity.
For physical beings, press 1.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
As much as I love a race that evolves beyond physical form, I was thinking the idea of a race on a moon in the Vulcan system that disappeared without a trace might be a series of early hints about the Romulan diaspora.
Still dying over dial a deity.
For physical beings, press 1.
Apparently even with evolved species, phone trees don't get any better in the future.
It was a fun episode but I feel like it had some similar thematic beats with the last episode where Spock was angsting over T'Pril and I'm not sure it did a whole lot for him as a character (this does not mean that the shenanigans we saw weren't fun, because of course they were). This said, I liked the scenes with him and his mom (she was fascinating) and we did get some growth for Chapel (plus Uhura and Erica were hilarious coaching her through that conversation).
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Allowing Spock to have such a deep glimpse of his human side, and setting him up for a relationship with Chapel whom we know is going to marry another man gives a reason for Nimoy Spock to so fiercely cling to his Vulcan identity in TOS. It allows them to move Peck Spock to the Where No Man Has Gone Before starting point so that Kirk and Bones can draw him toward the balanced Spock he grows to become.
It also gives the dissolution of the Spock and T’Pring relationship a deeper meaning. She was not as we saw in Amok Time, a calculating opportunist attempting to move upward in Vulcan society with Stonn, she was someone who truly cared for Spock and was hurt by him deeply.
This isn't as deep as the discussion preceding it (which has been great reading) but I just have to comment on Vulcans' seeming obsession with ceremony and ritual. For a culture who base their entire view on logic and suppression of emotions, why are these things so important? It seems to me that if a couple wanted to marry it would just be a simple declaration and entering it into the record. Or why would they even marry at all? Maybe I'm just a doofus who doesn't fully understand the concepts of logic fully as described by today's thinkers, but it just doesn't make sense to me.
Anyway, I've wondered about this going all the way back to when I was a kid and watching reruns of TOS on weekday afternoons when coming home from school.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think there have been more than a few hints that the vulcan ideas of logical are.. well bull. They're just putting window dressing over the outcome they want anyway.
Both the logic and the ceremonies are the same process: stopping/channeling that vulcan rage machine and forcing the vulcan to think and concentrate on something else. Slowly.
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
This isn't as deep as the discussion preceding it (which has been great reading) but I just have to comment on Vulcans' seeming obsession with ceremony and ritual. For a culture who base their entire view on logic and suppression of emotions, why are these things so important? It seems to me that if a couple wanted to marry it would just be a simple declaration and entering it into the record. Or why would they even marry at all? Maybe I'm just a doofus who doesn't fully understand the concepts of logic fully as described by today's thinkers, but it just doesn't make sense to me.
Anyway, I've wondered about this going all the way back to when I was a kid and watching reruns of TOS on weekday afternoons when coming home from school.
Vulcan behavior suggests a deeply traumatized people, powerfully terrified of their own potential for violent emotional reactions, and prone to hiding behind endless layers of slow, tedious, unchanging ritual to prevent anyone from ever going 'off-script' and doing anything impulsive or reckless or dangerous, because they are so scarred by whatever has happened in their past when some of them just did whatever the hell they felt like doing.
They got hurt (and / or hurt others) last time they ran, laughing wildly and arms flailing, so now they walk slowly, in small measured overly-careful steps, ever watchful for anyone anywhere showing any signs of 'out of control' or 'reckless' behavior.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think I remember Spock talking about it in the Original Series, the Vulcans nearly wiped themselves out because of their violent urges. It was one of them coming up with the path of Logic that kept them from self destruction.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Given Spock's potential mother-in-law seemed to be some Vulcan take on some kind of abusive personality disorder (and her husband behaving much like many spouses of those with personality disorders, walking on eggshells and constantly appeasing)... that is not what I'd expect from a person or race that is truly rational. A person who operates purely upon logic would not demand such appeasement or agreement at all times (it would be illogical to effectively insist you could always be right, because that's highly improbable), nor would it be logical to change one's opinion to appease someone so clearly disordered (as it only perpetuates delusion, which further gets in the way of assessing a situation logically).
So that alone would suggest that Vulcans actually rationalize far more often than behave completely rationally, let alone logically. And I think that's generally what Star Trek portrays on purpose?
What I found confusing was seeing how Spock responded to human emotion and sensation. They've made it clear that Vulcans do have emotions so I wasn't quite following what physiologically made human emotions so overwhelming to him when in theory Vulcans actually can/do feel intensely and try to control it with a logic-based discipline? Or is it just that humans have more/different hormones so that there's a lot more ambivalence and nuance to what one feels, whereas Vulcans just swing from even keel to super angry/passionate?
At any rate I agree with others that the point of Vulcan ritual is a form of discipline to limit emotions--or to test one's emotional limits to see how disciplined one truly is. In the case of some of the specific rituals we saw, they might also serve experience emotion in really controlled ways.
Thanks, everyone!
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Seemed like humans emotions are more erratic. Jumping around from place to place. There was some comparison to adolescence with Spock so the idea that maybe there is a significant different hormone balance that Spock was dealing with is probably on the right track.
Maybe Vulcans mainline emotions by comparison. If your angry that's all there is, if you get sad that's all there is, etc.. When one is raging it blots out the others sort of thing.
Also I'm not sure if Vulcan control over emotion is entirely meditative. There was an Original Series episode where they found some alien museum with time travel portals. Spock and I think McCoy got stuck in pre-history cave man era. Spock's emotional control went right down the crapper.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Another way to think about the Vulcan situation is to look at it from the perspective of theme, and Star Trek's theme is ultimately to reflect upon the human experience and human journey. All the aliens ultimately reflect particular aspects of humanity, especially different sides of both individual human psychology as well as social and cultural norms.
The Vulcans represent those humans who overprioritize order over all things, and use veneers of "logic" and ritual to reassure themselves they are "civilized." Think of the men of the "Age of Reason" who often backed barbaric acts during colonialistic efforts but came up with all kinds of "logical" or "scientific" explanations (that weren't actually logical or scientific) for why it was fine for them to do those things. I don't mean to say Vulcans themselves are colonialists (they're not) but they can be used as a mirror for humanity in that way (and course different Vulcan characters may play different roles and also still represent the positive side of discipline and logic... depends on the needs of the story and the given role for a character).
That's an amazing take on it, DQ. Thank you!
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
While it is a pretty minor throw away line I feel it is worth pointing out
Space Hippies are a thing that exists in Star Trek Cannon
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
They're usually found on "The Way to Eden."
I feel like Star Trek canon couldn't exist without space hippies.
Enjoyed this episode; felt like it dragged a little through the middle but enjoyed Uhura's story and everyone else got some interesting stuff, and I loved seeing [spoiler] again, even symbolically.
I don't tend to think of myself as a big TOS fan, but damn if the ending didn't get me feeling warm and fuzzy.
Same. But it makes me worried for all the other characters who...didn't make the cut, as it were.
Same. But it makes me worried for all the other characters who...didn't make the cut, as it were.
I truly don't think they meant to imply anything ominous. Obviously the ship is going to change hands at some point, and yes of course, there are going to be changes in the staff of the Enterprise. And that creates stakes which is a good thing
We know Pike is going to die. We know that because Pike knows he's going to die.
Everyone else is unknown, and I am okay with that. Yeah, it could be that all the other main characters (except Chapel, who sadly for some reason didn't get included in that final scene) die. But it's as likely something happens like Number One gets her own captaincy and takes Erica, La'an, and M'benga with her. And I assume Carol Kane just wanders merrily down the space lanes, happily ever after.
I wouldn't exactly say that Christine Chapel was a main character in TOS with her 33 appearances.
As for M'benga we know that he remains a medical officer on the Enterprise, though no longer the Chief Medical Officer
Also
We know Pike is going to die.
No we know explicitly that Pike is NOT going to die.
We know that because Pike knows he's going to die.
Pike knows he is going to lose all mobility and communication skills and be confined to a chair that beeps once for yes and twice for no.
That is his fate. Not death. He knows that fate.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
ok New episode dropped early and was kind of fun
Love how they mixed in some of the Lower Decks opening into the SNW Opening
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
"WHYISEVERYONETALKINGALLSLOWANDQUIET
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Yup, M'Benga is in two episodes of TOS (A Private Little War and That Which Survives), played by Booker Bradshaw.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Yup, M'Benga is in two episodes of TOS (A Private Little War and That Which Survives), played by Booker Bradshaw.
Oh cool! Nice to know.
Vulcans have always been whatever the current plot needs them to be (see Journey to Babel, Amok Time, Star Trek The Motion Picture, Enterprise)
Okay that was super fun. LOVED what they did with the animation. And I've never even watched Lower Decks.
(I might have to try now, but I'm not sure if I could take the two characters they had present in large doses. They were fun, don't get me wrong, just... large doses.)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It helps that Lower Decks is a half hour show, and it dose have a larger cast to deal with, though the four ensigns are the main characters. The adventures of the Ceritos are also kind of fun, because it's not one of the front line ships. They are the ones that do the follow up missions after the big stuff has happened.
(and on a side note; they just released the Lower decks source book for the Star Trek RPG for those groups who want to play the lower ranking characters on a ship)
Okay that was super fun. LOVED what they did with the animation. And I've never even watched Lower Decks.
I guess I can order take out. Or cook for you, whatever. Either way, I know what we're watching for the next several hours.
It helps that Lower Decks is a half hour show, and it dose have a larger cast to deal with, though the four ensigns are the main characters. The adventures of the Ceritos are also kind of fun, because it's not one of the front line ships. They are the ones that do the follow up missions after the big stuff has happened.
(and on a side note; they just released the Lower decks source book for the Star Trek RPG for those groups who want to play the lower ranking characters on a ship)
|
|
Okay that was super fun. LOVED what they did with the animation. And I've never even watched Lower Decks.
(I might have to try now, but I'm not sure if I could take the two characters they had present in large doses. They were fun, don't get me wrong, just... large doses.)
Lower Decks is fun for just ever-so-gently making fun of various classic Star Trek tropes, in the way a fan of Trek would mock them, which is cool.
But yeah, those two characters can be a bit much, since, being a cartoon, everyone is slightly exaggerated in affect, just a touch more 'over-the-top' than they would be in a live-action show. (Well, maybe they'd be more on-theme on the Orville, where even the bridge officers can be a bit over-the-top...)
The other two main characters, Tendi, an Orion medical trainee, and Rutherford, an engineering trainee with some cybernetic implants (that occasionally misfire...), can be overly enthusiastic (like Boimler, if not quite so socially awkward), but Mariner, because she's bounced around many ships both in her extended ensign career (her attitude keeps her from getting promoted) and following her Starship captain mother around as a child, has a bit of a 'seen it all' attitude that can sometimes bite her in the butt (and invite unwelcome comparisons to Michael Burnham, on Discovery, whose only real similarity to her is that they are both black women).
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
apparently yes
It will be called Subspace Rhapsody
there is even a poster