Fix this Alchemical Gunslinger

[Gortle]

This is a level 11 goblin gunslinger with Burn It and an alchemical flavour. Done by a gamer not that familiar with the PF2 system.

Problem is he is trying to use Alchemical Shot and its just not good value. There is a Fighter in the party with Eldritch Archer doing an Eldritch Shot for 2d8 Long Bow+1d6Rune+6d6 cantrip (TKP)+ weapon specialization making the damage comparison very stark.

Character looks like

Str 10, Dex 20, Con 16 Int 19 Wis 8 Cha 18

Way of the Sniper
Munitions Crafter
Alchemical Shot
Advanced Shooter
Munitions Machinist
Precious Munitions

Weapon is Drake Rifle (Electricity)

Hasn't filled in his free archetype yet.

Yeah I know the stats are odd.

So keeping the flavour, what should I suggest to this fellow player he does to be a bit more competitive?

[Blake's Tiger]

He's built a weakness exploiter, so his damage is going to depend on his ability to predict enemy weaknesses. A problem, unless the campaign is built around outsiders, is that most enemies don't have special weaknesses. The other "problem" is that the feats don't add together for more damage but rather broaden the options to damage other things more.

I don't think you need Munitions Machinist or Precious Munitions.

Level of the bomb doesn't matter for Alchemical Shot so it is sufficient fir its purpose.

That opens up Sniper's Aim at 6th. Penetrating Fire 10th for possibly doubling your damage output or Redirecting Shot 10th and get assist credit on the Eldritch Archer teammate's damage.

[Pixel Popper]

Alchemical Shot and the Advanced Sniper Deed Vital Shot both reliably stick Persistent Damage which can seem underwhelming at first. However, especially with multiple types of persistent damage ticking every round, it can quickly make up for underwhelming single-shot damage.

Also, unless he's going to Archetype into Beast Gunner, Sniper is all but begging for a rifle with the Fatal trait. With Gunslinger Proficiency and reliably flat-footed targets, a Sniper should be making Critical Strikes pretty frequently. A d8 Arquebus with Fatal d12 outshines the d10 Drake Rifle over an adventurer's lifetime of use.

Also, note, the Drake Rifle is "a distinct type of martial firearm that deals 1d10 damage with a range increment of 150 feet and reload 1." (Emphasis added) So, your slinger does not need Advanced Shooter.

Additionally, the level of Bomb does matter for Alchemical Shot, but, since Munitions Machinist sets the Alchemy Level for ammunition and bombs to the character's level minus 3, it doesn't matter until level 14.

With a Drake Rifle, though, he is primed to join the Eldritch Archer with Beast Gunner's Spellsling:

Munitions Crafter

pick something Hit the Dirt isn't horrible...

Alchemical Shot

Beast Gunner Dedication

Running Reload or Basic Beast Gunner Spellcasting

Grit and Tenacity

Beast Gunner Dedication gives training in Arcane or Primal spell attack rolls and spell DCs and grants spontaneous casting with a single cantrip. It also gives Spellsling which is identical in almost every way to Eldritch Shot.

[Blave]

Alchemical Shot is a fun, but ultimately somewhat weak feat. Or rather: a situational only. Its only really useful if you use it to either exploit a weakness or to circumvent physical resistance. I don't think it should be the main go to attack for any gunslinger.

I think one of the best non-situational damage feats of the Gunslinger is probably Risky Reload. It's very hard to beat an additional attack per turn, which Risky Reload allows with decent reliability.

[cavernshark]

I want to agree with Pixel Popper mostly. However, have you considered talking to the Fighter/Eldritch Archer about doing something other than nova striking? That's about as optimized for a big hit as you can get.

Your gunslinger seems more like they're trying to play like an alchemist with a gun than a gunslinger who dabbles in alchemy. Perhaps shifting to a support alchemist roll (focused on bombs) and grabbing Gunslinger dedication would reorient a bit. Most of the additional Munitions feats improve the bomb damage, but that's totally wasted on Alchemical Shot since it scales on level, not the bomb. Even the Precious Munitions feat isn't going to compare with a pure physical damage blast from the archer capable of busting through most DR.

If they do want to keep the gunslinger base, then trading out some of those feats for more ways to fire the gun more quickly/consistently is the way to go. Could even use those extra feats to shift into Investigator for DaS to help decide when alchemical shot is worth using vs. a normal shot.

[gesalt]

If they haven't filled in their free archetype yet, why not drop all the alchemy from the main class and go right up the alchemist archetype chain? By 11 you can hand out all the important potions and master alchemy is 1 level away if you want it.

As for the main class itself, I'd be wary of beast gunner archetype. It'll look good when both do the ranged spellstrike thing but when the gunner needs to reload the next turn and the fighter just keeps firing away it's going to feel pretty bad.

1. Hit the dirt or blast lock (if no thievery in party)
2. Fake out or risky reload
4. Risky reload or fake out
6. Running reload (if mobility is an issue in your games)

And then do whatever you want from 8+ I guess. One thing I would do though is to strongly impress on them the importance of saves. That 8 wisdom is begging to be punished.

cavernshark wrote:

I want to agree with Pixel Popper mostly. However, have you considered talking to the Fighter/Eldritch Archer about doing something other than nova striking? That's about as optimized for a big hit as you can get.

Telling the fighter to stop fighting because they're making the non-fighter look bad is not likely to go over well. Telling the fighter to apply slow 1 to the boss though might make them look even better though.

[cavernshark]

gesalt wrote:

Telling the fighter to stop fighting because they're making the non-fighter look bad is not likely to go over well. Telling the fighter to apply slow 1 to the boss though might make them look even better though.

My point was more that if this is an arms race, the Fighter is going to win in the white room every time. That's their core. It's a collaborative game, afterall, and it looks like they've got two folks gunning for the same role in the party (primary ranged damage dealer specializing in single shot damage). So if all the problems the party is facing are things that a 'railgun' (Eldritch Archer fighter) can solve with their trick, then the Gunslinger is going to feel bad and really no amount of mechanical fixes are going to solve that underlying problem.

My point isn't to shame the fighter, but to bring them into the discussion. If the fighter is making other party members feel bad, even unintentionally, it's worth having that conversation with the GM and looking for an amenable solution. It might be changing tactics a bit (as you suggest) before insta-gibbing targets, or even just finding ways for the two to coordinate better so they feel like a team. Hell, talking about taking Sniper Duo instead of some of the alchemist feats could work really well and let the Gunslinger feel good when their Fighter partner scores a solid hit.

[CaffeinatedNinja]

Drake rifle is also a poor choice for damage after lvl 8 or so. It is great until then but the inability to add elemental damage runes to it (no property runes) are costing him 1d6 damage a shot.

Agreed with what others have said about alchemical shot. It is not a use-every-fight ability. It is great when confronting an enemy with physical resists and/or a specific weakness it can exploit, but the rest of the time just shooting is superior.

[Dorian 'Grey']

I am currently building a Goblin Gunslinger (Way of the Sniper) with Free Archetype for Rogue Dedication or Assassin Dedication or Swashbuckler Dedication?

Can you see the possibilities?

[Gortle]

For the record the player in question did keep all the munition stuff. He fixed up the wisdom score. Bought a biger gun. Then found some things in Unexpected Sharpshooter that he liked. Which is all cool there is a lot there.

[Ganigumo]

The witch hex elemental betrayal essentially gives enemies a weakness and synergizes pretty well with alchemical shot.
You can spec into casting a bit for some other cool tools like true strike or flame wisp (the flames deal separate damage from your strike so you could trigger the bonus damage twice off one attack.) The setup might be a bit too action intensive though

Its uncommon, but an alchemical crossbow would be a cool pairing with that setup