What, exactly, is the question? Do you need a line by line breakdown of how the spell works? What does a person in decent authority mean?
ANIMATE DEAD
School necromancy [evil]; Level cleric 3, sorcerer/wizard 4
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (an onyx gem worth at least 25 gp per Hit Die of the undead)
Range touch
Targets one or more corpses touched
Duration instantaneous
***the skeleton(s)/zombie(s) do, indeed, last forever and always***
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no
This spell turns corpses into undead skeletons or zombies that obey your spoken commands.
***the spell's Duration is Instantaneous, so the skeleton(s)/zombie(s) do, indeed, last forever and always***
The undead can be made to follow you, or they can be made to remain in an area and attack any creature (or just a specific kind of creature) entering the place. They remain animated until they are destroyed. A destroyed skeleton or zombie can't be animated again.
***being dedtroyed is the only thing that stops the skeleton(s)/zombie(s) from lasting forever and always***
Regardless of the type of undead you create with this spell, you can't create more HD of undead than twice your caster level with a single casting of animate dead. The desecrate spell doubles this limit.
***you can create more than one skeleton/zombie with each casting of this spell***
The undead you create remain under your control indefinitely. No matter how many times you use this spell, however, you can control only 4 HD worth of undead creatures per caster level. If you exceed this number, all the newly created creatures fall under your control, and any excess undead from previous castings become uncontrolled. You choose which creatures are released. Undead you control through the Command Undead feat do not count toward this limit.
***you can create more than one skeleton/zombie with each casting of this spell, and they last forever and always (until destroyed), but you can only control a certain number of the skeletons/zombies you create***
Skeletons: A skeleton can be created only from a mostly intact corpse or skeleton. The corpse must have bones. If a skeleton is made from a corpse, the flesh falls off the bones.
Zombies: A zombie can be created only from a mostly intact corpse. The corpse must be that of a creature with a physical anatomy.
I think what he is asking is if the animate dead spell is limited to just humanoid creatures or can it be applied to any type of creature (such as horses, dogs, dragons, fairies, etc) and give him an explanation that he can use against his GM.
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"Skeleton" is an acquired template that can be added to any corporeal creature (other than an undead) that has a skeletal system (referred to hereafter as the base creature).
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Speed: A winged skeleton can’t use its wings to fly. If the base creature flew magically, so can the skeleton. All other movement types are retained.
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Variant Skeletons
Numerous variant skeletons exist, such as those whose bones burn with an unending fire and those who drip with gore and reassemble themselves over time. Both of these variant skeletons can be created using animate dead, but they count as twice their normal number of Hit Dice per casting. Once controlled, they count normally against the controller’s limit.
Zombies are the animated corpses of dead creatures, forced into foul unlife via necromantic magic like animate dead.
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Most zombies are created using animate dead. Such zombies are always of the standard type, unless the creator also casts haste or remove paralysis to create fast zombies, or contagion to create plague zombies.
“Zombie” is an acquired template that can be added to any corporeal creature (other than an undead), referred to hereafter as the base creature.
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Speed: Winged zombies can still fly, but maneuverability drops to clumsy. If the base creature flew magically, so can the zombie. Retain all other movement types.
Animate dead can animate any corporeal creature (other than an undead) that has a skeletal as a skeleton and any corporeal creature (other than an undead), as a zombie.
Your GM only needs to read the Bestiary I to see that.
I guess he doesn't want a player to have minions of unpredictable power. So make it predictable: Calculate the stats of a few skeletons / zombies. Show him, so he can evaluate on his own.
Beyond this, Animate Dead has a bunch of weaknesses which could make him more relaxed:
1) Animating costs quite a bit of gems, especially early on. And the money is gone forever.
2) A horde of skeletons / zombies is vulnerable to area damage, like a fireball.
3) The undead can be turned or controlled by enemy casters.
4) They are mindless, meaning of limited use out of combat.
5) The spell officially turns you into an evil creature, so detect evil will PING on you.
6) Good-aligned or mundane people might not like you for running around with a bunch of smelly dead. Especially if they recognize their aunt among them.
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This spell turns corpses into undead skeletons or zombies (see the Pathfinder RPG Bestiary) that obey your spoken commands.
Skeleton
HUMAN SKELETON
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Creating a Skeleton
Zombie
HUMAN ZOMBIE
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Creating a Zombie
Crate Undead creates "skeletons or zombies", not "Human skeletons" or "Human zombies".
Creating skeletons or zombies is done by adding the relative template to an appropriate target body.
Skeletons: A skeleton can be created only from a mostly intact corpse or skeleton. The corpse must have bones. If a skeleton is made from a corpse, the flesh falls off the bones.
Zombies: A zombie can be created only from a mostly intact corpse. The corpse must be that of a creature with a physical anatomy.
At the end of the spell description, it states clearly and explicitly what it can target. And nowhere that target is limited to human corpses or skeletons.
So, your GM as mo rule argument. Apparently, he has a control problem, but it is based on an incomprehension of the power of a skeleton or zombie.Let's assume that at level 5 you get the body of a 9HD dragon and animate it as a 10 HD zombie dragon.
What do you get?
Start with the corpse of a juvenile white dragon, 9 HD, add the zombie template:
NE Medium undead (cold)
Init +1; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +0
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Defense
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AC 13, touch 11, flat-footed 12 (+1 Dex, +2 natural)
hp 54 (10d8+10)
Fort +3, Ref +4, Will +7
DR 5/slashing; Immune undead traits
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Offense
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Speed 60 ft., burrow 30 ft., fly 150 ft. (clumsy), swim 60 ft.; icewalking
Melee 1 of it is staggered): bite +13 (1d8+9), 1 claw +13 (1d6+6), slam +13 (1d6+9), 1 wing +8 (1d4+3) (
Space 5 ft.; Reach 5 ft. (10 ft. with bite)
Statistics
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Str 23, Dex 12, Con —, Int —, Wis 10, Cha 10
Base Atk +7; CMB +13; CMD 24 (28 vs. trip)
Feats Toughness B
Skills Acrobatics +1 (+13 to jump), Swim +14
Languages Draconic
SQ staggered
Burrow (30 feet) You have a Burrow speed.
Damage Reduction (5/slashing) You have Damage Reduction against all except Slashing attacks.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white only).
Fly (150 feet, Clumsy) You can fly!
Icewalking (Ex) Climb and move on icy surfaces without penalty & no Acrobatics checks to run or charge on ice.
Staggered (Ex) Make only a single move or a single attack action each round.
Swim (60 feet) You have a Swim speed.
Undead Traits Undead have many immunities.
Challenge rating: 3
But it has an attack of +13! Sure, what is the attack of your frontline combatant?
54 hp! And?
It can fly. Yes, without the skill, dex 12 and -8 for being clumsy. A wonderful -7 to all flying check. Straight line ahead and hope for the best.
At the end of the day, you have spent 250 GP for a decent wall of flesh that will last about 2 rounds in a fight appropriate for 5th level characters.
Your GM is wrong.
If they are the type of person that does not take criticism well, you probably need to find a different table to play at if you want to use Animate Dead.
Otherwise, concede and move on without using Animate Dead.
I don't know if it is a control-freak thing, or just a genuine misunderstanding of the rules, but it is clownshoes either way. Read the spell, look at the templates, and decide if this level of power if appropriate for your game. It's not rocket surgery. If Animate Dead isn't allowed to be run as the spell is intended, then don't allow the spell, at all. Just say no Necromancy whatsoever, if you want to be lame like that. It's weird not allowing the players to have any control of anything. That level of insecurity in a GM is disgusting.
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Your GM is mistaken, but is still the GM. He is the final authority in any game he runs. You can try to convince him otherwise, but in the end your choices are to accept his ruling or find a different GM. This is not an argument you can win. If you are looking for assistance in framing your argument the forms can help, but if you want someone to overrule your GM you are out of luck.
Yes, the spell is also evil and casting such spells will actually turn your alignment evil.
An easy way to prevent that is using good spells as well because if evil spells turn you evil, good spells will turn you good balancing it out.
Summon monster to summon a celestial creature is a good spell
Your GM is mistaken, but is still the GM. He is the final authority in any game he runs. You can try to convince him otherwise, but in the end your choices are to accept his ruling or find a different GM. This is not an argument you can win. If you are looking for assistance in framing your argument the forms can help, but if you want someone to overrule your GM you are out of luck.
it is true that the gm sets the rules in the game, but these rules must be imposed before starting the game and not during the game.
If the gm does not specify in advance what the rules are and only announces them during the game, it can only generate frustration and anger in the players, which is not the idea
if your gm wants the skeletons to be as if you were playing diablo 2 (where it doesn't matter what you animate they will always be skeletons
humans) is fine, however, it must be stated that it is a house rule, and it must be announced before you run it, so there is no misunderstanding.
yes the zombies and skeletons are weak but if you play them strategically they can be very useful (use them as a shield while you cast a spell, entertain the opponent while you apply a healing potion to an ally, serve as a flanking part, etc. ). The other thing is that your gm doesn't have to bother to handle them because they will be under your control as if they were an invocation or an animal companion
additionally if the GM feels that it is mortifying for him to create each undead, then have him present you with a copy of the template so that you can prepare possible animations in advance and allow you to practice creating quick creations in case you find yourself with the possibility to use unique animations (such as dragons, ogres, giants, trolls, etc)
Rule 0 states that a GM is the final authority for any rules. A good GM should inform his players of any house rules, but still retains the right to rule on anything that comes up during the game. Most cases like this are because the people involved are looking at the rules and interpreting them differently. When a GM is mistaken about a rule it will obviously not be included in the list of house rules, because the GM does not think it is a house rule. When a situation like this comes up, the GM is within his rights to add the situation to his house rules.
A good GM should listen to his players when the respectfully disagree with his interpretation of the rules. In this case I disagree with the GM’s ruling, but still recognize his authority to run his campaign the way he wants to. The players actually have the ultimate authority on the game, because they can always choose not to play.
I understand the OP is probably frustrated at his GM, but the post is a little rude. If one of my players tried to find someone with greater authority over my game to overrule on of my decisions it would make me dig in even further no matter who the person was. Even it was the Jason Jacobs or another developer it would not make any difference.
If the player really wants to convince his GM, he is wrong I would suggest toning down his arguments and presenting the facts in a calm respectful manner. This is the best way to settle any disagreement about anything.
that rule 0 you make the GM look like a despot that no one can claim. it is true that the gm have the last word but every gm must follow a series of rules, if they want to ignore or replace a rule so that you are enjoyable the game is fine but it must be announced in advance, if you have any questions or feel that you did not take a rule in consideration will inform your players in a cordial manner perhaps even with
an apology, and will point out after the game the reason for his decision (that's what a good gm does)
Pizza Lord hit the nail on the head. The original post states that the player and GM are having a difference of opinion on what the spell actually does. Both of them think that their interpretation is correct. The GM in this case is wrong, but since he views his interpretation of the rule as RAW it is obviously not going to be in his list of house rules.
What a good GM would do at this point would to be to listen to listen to his player’s argument and do some research to determine what the actual rule is. If he decides to keep his interpretation of the rule, he should inform his players and allow them to alter their character if the new house rule is going to adversely affect their character. A bad GM would get into a heated argument with his player frustrating everyone.
Just as there are good and bad GM’s there are good and bad players. I don’t know the full details of the discussion, but from what little the original poster wrote both of them fall into the bad category. My guess is that both of them are not very mature. As a GM I would not put up with that kind of disrespect from one of my players. I listen to my players and if I they have a valid argument, I am willing to change my mind, but I will not stand for that kind of disrespect to me or to another player.
Found a nice cheat sheet about the spell. It lacks a few details (like the cases when bloody skeletons' deathless doesn't work), but seems pretty handy.
For some reason, I couldn't find an online calculator, so applying animate dead on the fly is still quite challenging.
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Found a nice cheat sheet about the spell. It lacks a few details (like the cases when bloody skeletons' deathless doesn't work), but seems pretty handy.
For some reason, I couldn't find an online calculator, so applying animate dead on the fly is still quite challenging.
Use the Combat Manager Program, you can apply the Skeleton or Zombie Template to any monster on the fly.