At tonight’s game a discussion came up about how the spell Chain Lightning works. My character just leveled up, got access to 6th grade spells and used it for the first time to devastating effect on a number of enemies surrounding our party. Everyone of the enemies failed or critically failed their Reflex Saves and was hit by the arcing lightning.
It was argued that the caster of Chain Lightning can only choose the first target of the chain, the secondary targets could be all creatures within 30 feet which means that this could also hit party members. I think that this is not how the spell is supposed to work and is even contradicted in the description of the spell where it is said that “You can’t target the same creature more than once, and you must have line of effect to all targets.“ This seems to imply to me that the caster chooses all the secondary targets, within the limitations of distance and line of effect.
I couldn’t find a thread about this question so I would like to hear your opinion.
Do I interpret how Chain Lightning works correctly?
Many thanks in advance for your comments!
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A world where the caster doesn't choose targets for Chain Lightning is a world where Chain Lightning doesn't work, because there's nothing written in the spell about how to choose targets. In order for the spell to work under the alternate interpretation, there has to be a way in the spell to figure out which the next target is (and there isn't).
Yes, you choose all the targets. Though it's not the main sentence which does it. The main reason is the Targets section:
Targets 1 creature, plus any number of additional creaturesYou select targets for spells according to Targets sections. It's probable that some spells (and Target sections for them) make you randomly select creatures, but I don't remember any such ones.
Almost always harming allies is possible only by getting them into spell areas or explicitly targeting them for some reason.
Yes, I looked into that the definition of targets in CRB as well. The confusion arose around the sentence in the description of Chain Lightning: "The electricity arcs to another creature within 30 feet of the first target, jumps to another creature within 30 feet of that target, and so on. You can end the chain at any point."
It was suggested at my table that because of the phrase "creature within 30 feet" and the statement "You can end the chain at any point" the caster can only choose the initial target and interrupt the arcing lightning whenever it could involuntarily hit a party member.
I think that this would make Chain Lightning nearly obsolete. Thanks for the clarification.
A world where the caster doesn't choose targets for Chain Lightning is a world where Chain Lightning doesn't work, because there's nothing written in the spell about how to choose targets. In order for the spell to work under the alternate interpretation, there has to be a way in the spell to figure out which the next target is (and there isn't).
I totally agree.
Another question came up regarding the state of visibility of the targets of Chain Lightning. The description says that the caster requires line of effect to all the targets of the spell. To me that seems to indicate that it is irrelevant if a target is concealed or currently under the effect of the spell Mirror Image or even Invisibility (as long as the recipient is only hidden and not undetected).
a) Concealment would therefore have no effect at all on Chain Lightning. Only the caster, a critical Reflex Save or a very solid barrier blocking line of effect can stop the spell?
b) Chain Lightning would fail if affected by the miss chance provided from concealment?
c) A target that is under the effect of concealment wouldn't be affected by Chain Lightning if the miss chance afforded through concealment applied and the lightning would just continue arcing to the next target?
Which conclusion is correct?
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c)
As it's a targetted spell, you need to roll for miss chance. But if you fail the miss chance the target doesn't have the chance to roll a critical success and as such the spell jumps to another target.
It raises an issue with Invisible targets, though. As you don't know where they are, you could potentially use that to jump anywhere you want, claiming that there's an invisible creature there. The GM should object, still. I'd make the lightning stop if you target a square where there's no target.
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I believe line of effect matters for all spells, not just AoE ones. Which really limits the usage of certain things like Message by RAW. That line in Chain Lightning means you can't bounce to around corners to hit creatures you couldn't otherwise target.
Targeting is targeting. It doesn't matter if you're targeting an ally for heal, aan enemy for charm person, chain lightning, or even magic missile. Concealment still creates a miss chance. It is a much stronger condition than it was in PF1.
Pretty much the same reason chain lightning won't hit your allies is why it won't bypass concealment. It targets.
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Reading the spell more closely, I think there's a way to handle concealment in a proper and unified way (and RAW). It's to target at the moment you cast the spell. So, if there are Concealed creatures, you roll before starting the Chain Lightning, and if you fail your flat check you can't make the Chain Lightning pass through this creature.
To sum up: You state the targets at the spell launch and roll for all concealment at that moment. Then you start the chain and affect any creature you managed to target.
If you don't know where they are, they are not Hidden, but Undetected and you can't target them at all. Unless GM allows to target empty squares, like you. If they are invisible, but you know the square, they are Hidden, targeting is allowed and only flat check applies.
It raises an issue with Invisible targets, though. As you don't know where they are, you could potentially use that to jump anywhere you want, claiming that there's an invisible creature there. The GM should object, still. I'd make the lightning stop if you target a square where there's no target.
Read the Undetected condition, you can target an Undetected creature, just randomly.
You state the targets at the spell launch and roll for all concealment at that moment. Then you start the chain and affect any creature you managed to target.I'd go with this too.
The more I read it, and the more I think it's the way it's intended. Targetting happens when you cast the spell, not while the spell effects are happening.
Reading the spell more closely, I think there's a way to handle concealment in a proper and unified way (and RAW). It's to target at the moment you cast the spell. So, if there are Concealed creatures, you roll before starting the Chain Lightning, and if you fail your flat check you can't make the Chain Lightning pass through this creature.
To sum up: You state the targets at the spell launch and roll for all concealment at that moment. Then you start the chain and affect any creature you managed to target.
I talked to my friend from my gaming group and I am starting to think that concealment is indeed able to stop the arc of Chain Lightning. The reasoning is that Chain Lightning works in a sequence and this sequence can be interrupted by a critical Reflex Save. A critical Reflex Save means that you have avoided or dodged an attack or effect completely and this seems to be the same result if a flat check for concealment is successful. The attack misses, the target remains unscathed and as a result Chain Lightning stops, because the sequence of Chain Lightning seems to be contingent on hitting (at least partially) its targets.
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I talked to my friend from my gaming group and I am starting to think that concealment is indeed able to stop the arc of Chain Lightning. The reasoning is that Chain Lightning works in a sequence and this sequence can be interrupted by a critical Reflex Save. A critical Reflex Save means that you have avoided or dodged an attack or effect completely and this seems to be the same result if a flat check for concealment is successful. The attack misses, the target remains unscathed and as a result Chain Lightning stops, because the sequence of Chain Lightning seems to be contingent on hitting (at least partially) its targets.
This is an interpretation of the rules. I don't say that you're wrong, just that it's a houserule. But you can apply it if you want.
This is an interpretation of the rules. I don't say that you're wrong, just that it's a houserule. But you can apply it if you want.
Yes, this is not explicitly stated and an interpretation. I guess we will discuss this at our gaming table and make a decision about how we want to handle this in the future.
And I thought picking Chain Lightning would be a straightforward choice which would bolster my arsenal of spells targetting reflex saves :-).
Chain Lightning is one of the strongest damage dealing spell in the game. A bit random because of how Critical Successes are handled, but appart from that, it's definitely a staple.
