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Without a spell book a wizard is pretty much a commoner. Spell book is actually a class feature but unlike most it is one that can be lost. The rules are quite clear that a wizard gets a starting spell book for free. This happens when the character first becomes a wizard. It contains his starting spells which are also free. For the record several other classes have class features that can be lost. Most of them are divine casters, but there are still class features that can be lost. With a divine caster they have to do specific things to regain them, wizards simply have to buy a new spell book.
I am not sure why you think getting a free masterwork weapon at second level is so powerful. Keep in mind that in order to enchant a weapon the wizard has to meet the requirement for the item creation feat. This means they need have the required caster level. So, in order for enchant a bonded weapon the character needs to be a 5th level WIZARD. So, the earliest a multiclassed wizard can get a magic weapon is 6th level. They still also have to pay the listed creation cost of half the list cost. They also need to spend the time actually making the item.
The draw backs of having a weapon for a bonded item outweighs the benefits. Using a weapon as your bonded weapon makes it a lot more likely that someone will be able to neutralize it. It’s pretty obvious when your bonded item is a weapon and is easier to target than a ring or amulet. The wand or staff have the same drawback, but at least those boost your spell casting. Even when you are not using it as a bonded item it is still a weapon, so people are going to be looking to take it away or render it useless. Weapons get disarmed and sundered and a bonded weapon is no different. There are also a lot of situations where weapons are not allowed. The Wizard with a ring as his bonded weapon may be able to keep it when he is seeing a king or high-ranking noble for an audience. Chances are the weapon will need to be left behind.
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It's similar to how improved familiar works. Even if you never roleplayed it, it is assumed your character was doing the work behind the scenes and any cost or time required was already covered by the cost of choosing that option.
So you don't play it like "*poof* I got new items". You play it more like, "I've always had these things in my pack and I've been browsing the spell book in my spare time".
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It's similar to how improved familiar works. Even if you never roleplayed it, it is assumed your character was doing the work behind the scenes and any cost or time required was already covered by the cost of choosing that option.
So you don't play it like "*poof* I got new items". You play it more like, "I've always had these things in my pack and I've been browsing the spell book in my spare time".
- "what's that?"
- "why, that's my masterwork war-Tuba"- "but where did you get it? we've been on this small island for the past 4 years now"
- "oh i have been caring it in my pack for a while"
-' what pack?! that small belt pouch you managed to swim with??"
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The GM can work how the items are gained into the story, but the character does not have to purchase them. If the character already has a masterwork weapon they can use. If the character does not have a masterwork weapon the GM could simply include one in the loot the characters find. Out of character simply tell the other players this is the characters bonded item. In either case the GM simply waives the cost of the ceremony to make it into a bonded weapon.
For the spell book the GM can also allow the character to find it or otherwise be acquire it. The player still gets to choose the spells it contains like they would if they were starting out as a wizard.
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Note that the rules for a wizard spell book is that "When a Wizard starts play" not when they take their first level in the class. If you are multiclassing into wizard, you both do not get a spellbook for free, nor do you get all the 0 level spells and first level spells based on your intelligence that you would receive if your first level was in wizard. Whether he even gains the 2 spells for free at first level is also up for debate as you don't gain them at first level, just from level 2 on.
That said, depending on the events so far, the player probably should have already found another wizard's spell book, in which case he just needs to copy down their notes (which could still cost a bit of money, half of which he can recoup back from selling it once he's done).
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It's similar to how improved familiar works. Even if you never roleplayed it, it is assumed your character was doing the work behind the scenes and any cost or time required was already covered by the cost of choosing that option.
So you don't play it like "*poof* I got new items". You play it more like, "I've always had these things in my pack and I've been browsing the spell book in my spare time".
- "what's that?"
- "why, that's my masterwork war-Tuba"
- "but where did you get it? we've been on this small island for the past 4 years now"
- "oh i have been caring it in my pack for a while"
-' what pack?! that small belt pouch you managed to swim with??"
It's not like you had to buy it. It could be as simple as something that got picked up in the last dungeon and it just never got mentioned. This is a game of creativity. Just get creative.
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Note that you can't just use any old ink to write spells, you need magical ink that's pretty expensive (10gp per spell level squared).
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Just don't try to exploit it to get a mw weapon before taking the class. Find an excuse.
Not much of an exploit. Hurt your BAB to get a weapon you could probably afford at second level? And weapon is a terrible bonded object. It’s pretty aggressive to have to grab your sword every time you cast a spell.
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Denying a character that picks up a level of wizard a starting spell book is a dick move by the GM. Technically prior to picking up the level of wizard the character is not a wizard. When they pick up their first level of wizard they have begun play as a wizard.
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Arcane bond can be an exploit depending on the object chosen and how the arcane bond is acquired. If u use eldritch heritage arcane bloodline and choose a breech-loader pistol you gain a 3300gp item for the cost of 2 feats at lvl 3. Used on a non spellcasting class the bonded item issues are somewhat mitigated.
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A wizard begins play with a spellbook containing all 0-level wizard spells (except those from his prohibited schools, if any; see Arcane Schools) plus three 1st-level spells of his choice. The wizard also selects a number of additional 1st-level spells equal to his Intelligence modifier to add to the spellbook. At each new wizard level, he gains two new spells of any spell level or levels that he can cast (based on his new wizard level) for his spellbook. At any time, a wizard can also add spells found in other wizards' spellbooks to his own (see Magic).
A sorcerer's selection of spells is extremely limited. A sorcerer begins play knowing four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells of her choice. At each new sorcerer level, she gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a sorcerer knows is not affected by her Charisma score; the numbers on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known are fixed.) These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of through study.
The wording for a wizard gaining a spell book is identical to a sorcerer gaining their initial spells. This means that if a character does not get their starting spell book and appropriate spells when they pick up a level of wizard, a character picking up a level of sorcerer does not get their starting spells known. Since the same wording is used on all spontaneous casters that would mean character who picks up a spontaneous caster class gets any spells until 2nd level. And is always behind is spells known.
As I said before both arcane bond and spell book are class features. When you multiclass you gain all the class features of the new class. RAW the wizard gets both the bonded item and the spell book when they pick up a level of wizard. If the GM wants to change that he can use a house rule and change it.
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Note that you can't just use any old ink to write spells, you need magical ink that's pretty expensive (10gp per spell level squared).no
this is how personal interpretation gets assumed as fact. It is not uncommon as people naturally fill in the process with their own details.Materials and Costs: The cost for writing a new spell into a spellbook depends on the level of the spell, as noted on the following table. Note that a wizard does not have to pay these costs in time or gold for spells he gains for free at each new level.cost or costs. Not ink. It's not specific on purpose.
Replacing a spellbook as outlined in the following paragraphs of the CRB costs half of the first time. Again, it is just the cost of the process not any individual item.
As a Home GM you can require an expensive or special ink. You just need to stay at or under the cost of a recopied Zero level spell per page (the minimum cost).
You could do ink for a given spell level and/or school but that seems overly specific without some in game or storyline benefit.
There was no mention of the spells being written in the post I was responding to being the free ones from leveling, which they are still written in said magical ink, the ink is just "free/already there". If you were to sell your spell book for any reason, you still would get the money for those spells, because the ink is still magical.
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A wizard begins play with a spellbook containing all 0-level wizard spells (except those from his prohibited schools, if any; see Arcane Schools) plus three 1st-level spells of his choice. The wizard also selects a number of additional 1st-level spells equal to his Intelligence modifier to add to the spellbook. At each new wizard level, he gains two new spells of any spell level or levels that he can cast (based on his new wizard level) for his spellbook. At any time, a wizard can also add spells found in other wizards' spellbooks to his own (see Magic).
A sorcerer's selection of spells is extremely limited. A sorcerer begins play knowing four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells of her choice. At each new sorcerer level, she gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a sorcerer knows is not affected by her Charisma score; the numbers on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known are fixed.) These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of through study.
The wording for a wizard gaining a spell book is identical to a sorcerer gaining their initial spells. This means that if a character does not get their starting spell book and appropriate spells when they pick up a level of wizard, a character picking up a level of sorcerer does not get their starting spells known. Since the same wording is used on all spontaneous casters that would mean character who picks up a spontaneous caster class gets any spells until 2nd level. And is always behind is spells known.
As I said before both arcane bond and spell book are class features. When you multiclass you gain all the class features of the new class. RAW the wizard gets both the bonded item and the spell book when they pick up a level of wizard. If the GM wants to change that he can use a house rule and change it.
Is there a table listing how many spells a wizard should know at later levels? If not, the proper assumption is that the game is taking the safe rout for someone making a first level sorcerer that it might be their first time playing the game, and spelling out exactly what they get based on the table that is hard limited, i.e. you know only this much and never more (except your bloodline spells) or less.
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We are not talking about later levels the post is about what a wizard gets when a character multiclasses and picks up his first level of wizard. Also, the number of spells a spontaneous caster knows is not completely fixed. The Crossblooded sorcerer knows one fewer spell at each spell level. There are feats and favored class bonuses that can increase the number of spells a sorcerer knows. Oracle’s can get extra spells knows from their curse.
The rules also state a wizard is able to know any number of spells. It specifies how many spells they start with and gives them a set number of free spells for each level of wizard they gain. Creating a chart would be pointless. The description of spells under the sorcerer specifically refers you to the chart. This was done for the mainly to simplify the rules and to make it easier on the player. There is an underlying system to the spells a spontaneous caster knows but writing them out would confuse most players.
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Calling it "magical" ink isn't exactly correct, but it is "special" ink since it has its own special cost.
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Point of order: it is never specified that ink, special, magical or whatnot, is the reason for the cost of writing spells. It could just as easily be single use celestial quills, required sacrifices to Nethys, or ritually prepared, thought focusing tea.
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Actually incorrect.
Materials and Costs: The cost for writing a new spell into a spellbook depends on the level of the spell, as noted on Table: Spell Level and Writing Costs. Note that a wizard does not have to pay these costs in time or gold for spells he gains for free at each new level.
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Duplicating an existing spellbook uses the same procedure as replacing it, but the task is much easier. The time requirement and cost per page are halved.
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Captured spellbooks can be sold for an amount equal to half the cost of purchasing and inscribing the spells within.
I'll admit I either didn't know or forgot that you actually get a discount for copying from another spellbook, and it turns out that the cost of writing a spell from the table actually includes a surcharge (of 50% the listed value) from another wizard to copy from their book, hence the pilfered one being free. This also means you sell spellbooks at cost, as a trade good.
The only thing of value in the book, to someone who has no idea what magic is, is the ink, and while the spellbook isn't explicitly magical ink, scrolls are, and it's an odd assumption to assume they are different when spoken about in the same sections of the book.
I still stand by "if you are multiclassing into wizard, meaning you didn't attend a college for years and years, you aren't 'starting play' as a wizard and dont get the free stuff."
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Actually incorrect.
Materials and Costs: The cost for writing a new spell into a spellbook depends on the level of the spell, as noted on Table: Spell Level and Writing Costs. Note that a wizard does not have to pay these costs in time or gold for spells he gains for free at each new level.
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Duplicating an existing spellbook uses the same procedure as replacing it, but the task is much easier. The time requirement and cost per page are halved.
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Captured spellbooks can be sold for an amount equal to half the cost of purchasing and inscribing the spells within.
I'll admit I either didn't know or forgot that you actually get a discount for copying from another spellbook, and it turns out that the cost of writing a spell from the table actually includes a surcharge (of 50% the listed value) from another wizard to copy from their book, hence the pilfered one being free. This also means you sell spellbooks at cost, as a trade good.
The only thing of value in the book, to someone who has no idea what magic is, is the ink, and while the spellbook isn't explicitly magical ink, scrolls are, and it's an odd assumption to assume they are different when spoken about in the same sections of the book.
I still stand by "if you are multiclassing into wizard, meaning you didn't attend a college for years and years, you aren't 'starting play' as a wizard and dont get the free stuff."
Except without that "free stuff" starting spells the wizard level is not just useless but probably hurts you as your not getting the very features that make your character able to function. I can see it annoying not just the person multiclassing into wizard but the other party members as the player is now less able to perform their role.
However it goes beyond that (unless I've missed something) because the cost for buying a spell is generally (spell level squared times 10) times 1.5. So that 3 to 8 1st level spells they don't get will cost them 15 times 3 to 8 plus 15 for the spellbook or 60 to 135 gold just getting caught up. However the 28 starting cantrips don't have a workable price as your assumed to start play with them all. 0 squared is 0 times 10 is still 0 and times 1.5 is still 0. Cantrips are theoretically free to buy because you shouldn't need to buy them. Still most people treat it as 1/2 a first level spell (though I don't recall seeing that as a written rule because again your assumed to start with them all) so if we take that your now adding (15 times .5) times 28 = 210 plus the 1st level spells getting us to a total of 270 to 345 gold.
That's not a trivial cost to put on something that as said above is a class feature required for someone to actually perform the role they're multi-classing for. Especially since there is a precedent for them to be free (2 spells a level) and if you multiclass to a sorcerer you HAVE to give them their starting spells as they don't have a mechanic to learn new ones.
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Cantrips cost half a first level spell (5gp), also learning a spell is still by the table, so no +50% cost (as mentioned above that is is covered by the table, see below). It also makes no sense for a player to multiclass into wizard unless they either have said spell book already from someone else they defeated or are spending money to learn spells. Where did they learn to do any of this, let alone get the time to do so when it takes the typical human ~7 years? Why didn't you just start as a wizard and then multiclass at level 2 into the other class? Beyond the nonsense of a story this would create in almost any game if someone really wanted to do this, I cannot buy that in a game made by people who wanted to limit multiclassing, this is not the intended outcome, especially when that ~230gp (after removing your erroneous +50%) upstart cost gets infinitesimally small if you just wait a couple of levels for more WBL, before we also take into account the reduction in cost of copying out of an existing spellbook that you acquired.
In most cases, wizards charge a fee for the privilege of copying spells from their spellbooks. This fee is usually equal to half the cost to write the spell into a spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook). Rare and unique spells might cost significantly more.
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Duplicating an existing spellbook uses the same procedure as replacing it, but the task is much easier. The time requirement and cost per page are halved.
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Cantrips cost half a first level spell (5gp), also learning a spell is still by the table, so no +50% cost (as mentioned above that is is covered by the table, see below). It also makes no sense for a player to multiclass into wizard unless they either have said spell book already from someone else they defeated or are spending money to learn spells. Where did they learn to do any of this, let alone get the time to do so when it takes the typical human ~7 years? Why didn't you just start as a wizard and then multiclass at level 2 into the other class? Beyond the nonsense of a story this would create in almost any game if someone really wanted to do this, I cannot buy that in a game made by people who wanted to limit multiclassing, this is not the intended outcome, especially when that ~230gp (after removing your erroneous +50%) upstart cost gets infinitesimally small if you just wait a couple of levels for more WBL, before we also take into account the reduction in cost of copying out of an existing spellbook that you acquired.
In most cases, wizards charge a fee for the privilege of copying spells from their spellbooks. This fee is usually equal to half the cost to write the spell into a spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook). Rare and unique spells might cost significantly more.
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Duplicating an existing spellbook uses the same procedure as replacing it, but the task is much easier. The time requirement and cost per page are halved.
Except there are battlemage and other concepts that the player may want to play without tapping the classes that lean towards that. For example a player may want for their own reasons to be a rogue with some levels of wizard rather than an eldritch scoundrel or the like. Unless your playing gestalt the only way to reflect this is Rogue 1, Wizard 2-X, Rogue X - 20 (or vary as desired). That is your not spending off screen time to equate 7 years of study, you have spent years studying both rogue and wizard knowledge its just finalized reached the point of you being able to use it (wizard 1) and yes it did take longer than someone studying only wizard hence you taking it later than 1st level.
On another note what is penalizing the character like this going to accomplish beyond driving them away if you spring it on them after the game started? If you tell them before the game starts you wont give them starting spells they'd just start as wizard and then multi-class into the other classes rather than the other way around as AwesomenessDog pointed out. Since starting without other class weapons/armour is far less of a penalty as your generally trying to replace them anyway.
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Note that you can't memorize spells (beside Read Magic) until you have copied them in your spellbook.
If you lose your spellbook you can still prepare the spell you have already learned and copied by studying a borrowed/captured spellbook.
Wizard Spells and Borrowed Spellbooks
A wizard can use a borrowed spellbook to prepare a spell he already knows and has recorded in his own spellbook, but preparation success is not assured. First, the wizard must decipher the writing in the book (see Arcane Magical Writings, above). Once a spell from another spellcaster’s book is deciphered, the reader must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell’s level) to prepare the spell. If the check succeeds, the wizard can prepare the spell. He must repeat the check to prepare the spell again, no matter how many times he has prepared it before.
If the check fails, he cannot try to prepare the spell from the same source again until the next day. However, as explained above, he does not need to repeat a check to decipher the writing.
So, even having a captured spellbook does nothing for you until you have your own.
Cantrips:
1) A specialist wizard lacks the cantrips from his opposite schools when he starts playing, so even people that start as a wizard can need to learn and copy cantrips.
2) P. 219 of the CRB: Cantrips Witing cost 5 gp.
Plus:
"In most cases, wizards charge a fee for the privilege of copying spells from their spellbooks. This fee is usually equal to half the cost to write the spell into a spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a spellbook). Rare and unique spells might cost significantly more."
So, copying a cantrip from another wizard generally incurs a cost of 7.5 gp.
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AwesomenessDog if Paizo is really trying to limit multiclassing they’re doing a terrible job considering they made so many classes/archetypes (many that synergize really well) and even created a second (Variant) system of multiclassing that can be used at the same time as regular multiclassing and created prestige classes that require it as a prerequisite. I don’t see that as a valid argument in favor of denying a wizard their starting spellbook especially considering spellbook is listed as a class feature not some footnote at the bottom saying u gotta find or buy one if u don’t take ur level at 1st. If we follow your logic then gunslingers who take their 1st level after 1st should be required to buy their first broken firearm, Bladebound Magus should have to buy their black blades Battlehost occultists should have to buy their Panoply Bond item and any class that gains a familiar should have to pay the replacement cost for their familiar since they didn’t have a familiar the day before they leveled up. Once you start applying that logic across the board the game breaks down and multiclassing into any class that starts with an item of value become really bad choices. It makes no sense to penalize players that chose these classes while other classes that don’t gain an item at first level are completely unaffected. It just doesn’t make sense. Spellbook is a class feature and u gain it at wizard level 1 regardless of what character level u gain that wizard level at.
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It also makes no sense for a player to multiclass into wizard unless they either have said spell book already from someone else they defeated or are spending money to learn spells. Where did they learn to do any of this, let alone get the time to do so when it takes the typical human ~7 years? Why didn't you just start as a wizard and then multiclass at level 2 into the other class? Beyond the nonsense of a story this would create in almost any game if someone really wanted to do this, I cannot buy that in a game made by people who wanted to limit multiclassing, this is not the intended outcome
A Fighter multiclassing in to Wizard is literally the example of multiclassing given in the CRB. So it is absolutely intended.
"For example, let’s say a 5th-level fighter decides to dabble in the arcane arts, and adds one level of wizard when he advances to 6th level. Such a character would have the powers and abilities of both a 5th-level fighter and a 1st-level wizard, but would still be considered a 6th-level character. (His class levels would be 5th and 1st, but his total character level is 6th.) He keeps all of his bonus feats gained from 5 levels of fighter, but can now also cast 1st-level spells and picks an arcane school." CRB pg. 30
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I think the argument that you don’t get these items because it doesn’t make sense in the context of the STORY doesn’t hold water. Here’s a simple story explanation for the appearance of a spellbook in game; the spellbook has been handed down in the family for generations and has been in the characters pack the whole time and they were studying it in their spare time behind the scenes. There problem solved and it took me less than 10 seconds to come up with the solution. GM laziness/lack of imagination is not a valid reason to deny a player their class features.
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This is no different than the bonus spells the wizard gets every level. Where did they get access to the new spells? Where did they get the materials and time needed to research or copy them? It was all just happening off screen.
It's the same as "suddenly" having a spellbook and bonded object. It was offscreen until it wasn't. It doesn't really matter where it was off screen. It could have been in your pack or it could have been found under a rock right before you leveled. It only matters as much as you want it to matter.
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The rules are written with bipeds in mind. When a creature is not a bidep a GM needs to make reasonable adjustments for how casting spells and the like works.
LIKEWISE, the rules around character creation are written as though a character were created from scratch.
If I create a level 10 wizard, I get X things. If I create a level 1 wizard then spend adventuring time to level up to 10, there should be no way to distinguish it from the level 10 wizard created from scratch.
The same holds for multiclassing. If I create a level 5 wizard, level 5 rogue from scratch, there should be nothing that distinguishes it from a level 1 rogue, who then gained 4 more levels of rogue and 5 levels of wizard (assuming very strict WBL rules are being followed). eg, there should be no difference in how much gold these two characters have, and no difference in how many spells are in the spellbook (assuming same choices in additional spells purchased) etc. If there is a difference, you've done something wrong.
This is similar to like when a character gains 2 additional points of intelligence. They also gain the skill points associated with their current character level, an additional language if appropriate, etc.
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The only thing of value in the book, to someone who has no idea what magic is, is the ink, and while the spellbook isn't explicitly magical ink, scrolls are, and it's an odd assumption to assume they are different when spoken about in the same sections of the book.
It's not (necessarily) the ink.
The value in a captured spellbook for someone who cannot cast spells, is finding the right buyer who can cast spells.
eg, we wouldn't say the value in a +1 longsword for someone who doesn't know how to use a longsword is the value in the metal that went into making the sword. The value is the market value for the right buyer (the fighter looking for a magical longsword).
Also, for scrolls the cost isn't exclusively in the ink. The rules are
All writing implements and materials used to scribe a scroll must be fresh and unused. A character must pay the full cost for scribing each spell scroll no matter how many times she previously has scribed the same spell.
Ink* would count as one of possibly several materials. Other materials might the sand a writer would spread over the writing surface to help the ink dry, a small sprinking of diamond dust, or other things. Ink does not count as a implement, so a special quill might be required, or a special incense burner, etc.
*ink might actually be demon blood, or some other material that we could write with that we don't normally consider as "ink".
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So why not go wizard into rogue? Why do you not have the wizard knowledge at all, then suddenly you can finally cast your first spell after you've sneak attacked to death X people?
Said 6th level Fighter5/Wizard1 has to pay said ~200gp out of their 16k WBL. Buying your own book isn't a problem if you aren't doing it immediately at level 2. And it's still free if you do the smart thing and take wizard first, and then fighter.
@Trokkar, I don't disagree with those other (late multiclassing) points, in fact those ones even have rules within their ability listing for making new ones. The Wizard spell book ability also does explain making a new one when you follow the reference within the ability as well. Also, yes late stage Paizo design is clearly distinct from their initial intents (when they wrote wizard), just look at any archetype made before 2012 and after 2015. And even then, they wanted to cut back on multiclassing, not eliminate it entirely, and free things you get at early levels (such as level 1) of a class was the main thing. Again, this is absolutely free if you aren't doing it immediately as soon as you can have 2 different classes, a first level wizard has to spend 200gp on an arcane bond (if they don't have a familiar) and only if they don't find someone else's spell book first, they have to spend 210gp to get the same spells as a level 1 wizard with 18 Int. Those are flat costs regardless of whatever level you take your first level of wizard at. I don't understand how this is some insurmountable hurdle. I still don't get how anyone who isn't already a wizard (see above why said wizard level should be taken first anyway) could suddenly be able to cast magic in a real story/game unless they found someone else's book, in which case, it costs 105gp plus the 200gp optional bonded item.
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If you want to look at the game that realistically the whole system of “leveling up” is just bonkers. You fight a bunch of goblins one day and the next day u wake up and you just know how to do amazing things you couldn’t do the day before. “Realistically” every character who would gain any significant new class feature when they level should have to leave the party for weeks/months/years whatever to go find some teacher to train them to do whatever crazy new thing they’re supposed to know now. Meanwhile party members that don’t gain anything new just gotta twiddle their thumbs till they get back and watch while whatever baddy they’re after goes on about their merry way. Realism….fun? Gaining a level or class feature either at first level or later is a game mechanic. Overthinking the “realism” is just going to bog down the game and make it less fun for everyone. All that aside I don’t see how penalizing spellbook using casters who gain their first level after level one is in any way fair regardless of how insignificant the cost may be at higher levels.
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So why not go wizard into rogue? Why do you not have the wizard knowledge at all, then suddenly you can finally cast your first spell after you've sneak attacked to death X people?
The point is that it shouldn't matter. If you go wizard into rogue, or rogue into wizard, there should be no difference between the characters.
If my backstory is I grew up on the streets (rogue) but was always fascinated by the hedge wizard, and liked to dabble with trinkets he gave me, then at level 2 I figured out how he did his tricks. Then I'm rogue wizard.
If my backstory is I got formal training in magic while young (wizard), but felt it didn't pay well enough, so I started shoplifting things at the local shop, then I'm wizard rogue.
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If you want to look at the game that realistically the whole system of “leveling up” is just bonkers. You fight a bunch of goblins one day and the next day u wake up and you just know how to do amazing things you couldn’t do the day before. “Realistically” every character who would gain any significant new class feature when they level should have to leave the party for weeks/months/years whatever to go find some teacher to train them to do whatever crazy new thing they’re supposed to know now. Meanwhile party members that don’t gain anything new just gotta twiddle their thumbs till they get back and watch while whatever baddy they’re after goes on about their merry way. Realism….fun? Gaining a level or class feature either at first level or later is a game mechanic. Overthinking the “realism” is just going to bog down the game and make it less fun for everyone. All that aside I don’t see how penalizing spellbook using casters who gain their first level after level one is in any way fair regardless of how insignificant the cost may be at higher levels.
That did used to be the case, can't remember the exact rules but to level up in earlier dnd editions you had to spend x amount of time training under someone of appropriate level to level up. It even varied in how long it took based on how well you roleplayed and I think by class. So you got enough xp to go from 4 to 5 but had to find a trainer, pay them and then spend time studying under them to develop your new skills.
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| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If you want to look at the game that realistically the whole system of “leveling up” is just bonkers. You fight a bunch of goblins one day and the next day u wake up and you just know how to do amazing things you couldn’t do the day before. “Realistically” every character who would gain any significant new class feature when they level should have to leave the party for weeks/months/years whatever to go find some teacher to train them to do whatever crazy new thing they’re supposed to know now. Meanwhile party members that don’t gain anything new just gotta twiddle their thumbs till they get back and watch while whatever baddy they’re after goes on about their merry way. Realism….fun? Gaining a level or class feature either at first level or later is a game mechanic. Overthinking the “realism” is just going to bog down the game and make it less fun for everyone. All that aside I don’t see how penalizing spellbook using casters who gain their first level after level one is in any way fair regardless of how insignificant the cost may be at higher levels.That did used to be the case, can't remember the exact rules but to level up in earlier dnd editions you had to spend x amount of time training under someone of appropriate level to level up. It even varied in how long it took based on how well you roleplayed and I think by class. So you got enough xp to go from 4 to 5 but had to find a trainer, pay them and then spend time studying under them to develop your new skills.
First edition AD&D. From what I recall it was between a week and a month, depending on how well you did role play your class. Beyond a point, you didn't need the trainer (probably when you reached the name level) and you could self-train at the expense of more time.
AD&D and D&D BECM had campaigns that lasted years or decades in in-game time. And teleport was very risky, so it was rarely used. The error was how far over or under the target area you ended.The style of play was noticeably different.
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Actually incorrect.
Materials and Costs: The cost for writing a new spell into a spellbook depends on the level of the spell, as noted on Table: Spell Level and Writing Costs. Note that a wizard does not have to pay these costs in time or gold for spells he gains for free at each new level.
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Duplicating an existing spellbook uses the same procedure as replacing it, but the task is much easier. The time requirement and cost per page are halved.
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Captured spellbooks can be sold for an amount equal to half the cost of purchasing and inscribing the spells within.
I'll admit I either didn't know or forgot that you actually get a discount for copying from another spellbook, and it turns out that the cost of writing a spell from the table actually includes a surcharge (of 50% the listed value) from another wizard to copy from their book, hence the pilfered one being free. This also means you sell spellbooks at cost, as a trade good.
The only thing of value in the book, to someone who has no idea what magic is, is the ink, and while the spellbook isn't explicitly magical ink, scrolls are, and it's an odd assumption to assume they are different when spoken about in the same sections of the book.
I still stand by "if you are multiclassing into wizard, meaning you didn't attend a college for years and years, you aren't 'starting play' as a wizard and dont get the free stuff."
i marked it in the above post, but let me rewrite it:
"Note that a wizard does not have to pay these costs in time or gold for spells he gains for free at each new level."1st level is also a new level - the spells you gain at level 1 cost nothing to have in your book. and a 1st level wizard also get a free book so all in all spells and book should cost nothing extra.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Actually incorrect.
Materials and Costs: The cost for writing a new spell into a spellbook depends on the level of the spell, as noted on Table: Spell Level and Writing Costs. Note that a wizard does not have to pay these costs in time or gold for spells he gains for free at each new level.
...
Duplicating an existing spellbook uses the same procedure as replacing it, but the task is much easier. The time requirement and cost per page are halved.
...
Captured spellbooks can be sold for an amount equal to half the cost of purchasing and inscribing the spells within.
I'll admit I either didn't know or forgot that you actually get a discount for copying from another spellbook, and it turns out that the cost of writing a spell from the table actually includes a surcharge (of 50% the listed value) from another wizard to copy from their book, hence the pilfered one being free. This also means you sell spellbooks at cost, as a trade good.
The only thing of value in the book, to someone who has no idea what magic is, is the ink, and while the spellbook isn't explicitly magical ink, scrolls are, and it's an odd assumption to assume they are different when spoken about in the same sections of the book.
I still stand by "if you are multiclassing into wizard, meaning you didn't attend a college for years and years, you aren't 'starting play' as a wizard and dont get the free stuff."
i marked it in the above post, but let me rewrite it:
"Note that a wizard does not have to pay these costs in time or gold for spells he gains for free at each new level."1st level is also a new level - the spells you gain at level 1 cost nothing to have in your book. and a 1st level wizard also get a free book so all in all spells and book should cost nothing extra.
He isn't gaining those spells for free at first (wizard) level, he is getting those spells for starting play as a wizard, something that is not the case in our scenario.