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It is definitely an oversight - many ancestries do specify the weapon group of their unarmed attack, and the lizardfolk do get a feat (Iruxi unarmed cunning) which grants their unarmed attacks access to the critical specialization effects, so them having a weapon group is required for that feat to work.
As far as I can tell, there isn't a general "unarmed attacks are brawling" rule, instead it is usually specified with each unarmed attack that they are brawling (or sling for ranged attacks).
But, no GM in their right mind would tell a player that they don't get the brawling critical specialization from Iruxi Unarmed Cunning and a lizardfolk's unarmed attacks. It is one of those ambiguities/oversights in the rules where the correct GM ruling/RAI is glaringly obvious.
So, to give a cliff notes version - a literal interpretation says that there isn't a default weapon group for unarmed attacks, so the lack of a specified weapon group means the attack has no weapon group, but that is definitely an oversight and the RAI is that you should use the brawling weapon group for those attacks.
The example given above on the Iruxi unarmed attacks appears to be an oversight, but it is not always the case.
For instance, in the battle form spells (Beast shape, Dragon Shape etc.) the unarmed attacks do not list a weapon group. I would argue that is part of the spell balance.
If Battle Form attacks were Brawling group? Compare a Fighter's attack bonus to anybody else's when focusing on Brawling.
Without a weapon group, even Fighter isn't better then any other martial class. And Druids can get close with their +2 bonus. So yeah, balance reasons.
Doesn't the errata make unarmed attacks scale automatically anyways?
Changes to All Classes for Unarmed Attack Proficiency and Benefits
Any class feature that improves the proficiency rank or grants the critical specialization effect access for simple weapons or a specific set of weapons, that ability also grants that benefit for unarmed attacks.
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Unarmed Attacks can belong to weapon groups, but they don't have to.
Unarmed attacks can belong to a weapon group (page 280), and they might have weapon traits (page 282).
So the ones that don't list a weapon group aren't in any weapon groups.
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Doesn't the errata make unarmed attacks scale automatically anyways?
Changes to All Classes for Unarmed Attack Proficiency and Benefits
Any class feature that improves the proficiency rank or grants the critical specialization effect access for simple weapons or a specific set of weapons, that ability also grants that benefit for unarmed attacks.
Their proficiency scales with your basic class weapons, but they need to be in a weapon group to take advantage of some class abilities like Fighter Weapon Mastery.
I have a chart for Unarmed Attack Proficiencies.
• Gisher's Guide to Proficiency Bonuses
Well, that's another area that needs clarification, the errata and the updated CRB work differently when it comes to proficiency (at least for the fighter) and so far I haven't seen any dev posts clarifying it one way or the other.
As another example, the Unarmed attacks (Bite & Claw) granted by Bestial Mutagen do not belong to any Weapon Groups.
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I'm pretty sure this is NOT an error but instead just a feature. There are about a dozen examples of Unarmed Attacks that don't have a Weapon Group and from what I can tell most of these seem to be a bit stronger than most actual Weapons that have the same Damage Die... in other words, the lack of a Weapon Group seems to be intentional as a means of balancing them without having to strip away a Weapon Trait, remove some of the cool stuff that the PC is allowed to do with that Unarmed Attack, or nerf the Damage Die of it.
If Battle Form attacks were Brawling group? Compare a Fighter's attack bonus to anybody else's when focusing on Brawling.
Without a weapon group, even Fighter isn't better then any other martial class. And Druids can get close with their +2 bonus. So yeah, balance reasons.
That was the intent. But Fighters can take the Martial Artist Dedication and still get their legendary proficiency in unarmed attacks. Then combine that with a high level mutagen for an above average item bonus, or a druid wild shaped for a permanent +2 status bonus for the some of the best attack values in the game.
If Battle Form attacks were Brawling group? Compare a Fighter's attack bonus to anybody else's when focusing on Brawling.
Without a weapon group, even Fighter isn't better then any other martial class. And Druids can get close with their +2 bonus. So yeah, balance reasons.
That was the intent. But Fighters can take the Martial Artist Dedication and still get their legendary proficiency in unarmed attacks. Then combine that with a high level mutagen for an above average item bonus, or a druid wild shaped for a permanent +2 status bonus for the some of the best attack values in the game.
Are you certain?
"Choose one weapon group. Your proficiency rank increases to master with the simple weapons, martial weapons, and unarmed attacks in that group, and to expert with the advanced weapons in that group. "
The only 'group' that applies to Unarmed attacks is weapons/attacks in the 'Brawling' group of weapons/attacks. So a natural attack from Battle Form, emphatically not being in the 'Brawling' weapon category, would not apply.
The question then would be if the Martial Artist really works that way.
"Whenever you gain a class feature that grants you expert or greater proficiency in certain weapons, you also gain that proficiency rank in all unarmed attacks."
So would getting Master/Legendary in Brawling weapons/attacks, which happen to include Unarmed Fist, but also such things as Simple Knuckle Duster or Martial Pantograph Gauntlet then also count for boosting the base Unarmed skill rank?
I certainly would not mind that being the case (what with being a bit of a Fighter fanboy), but that would mean a Fighter could pick, say, Clubs as his favourite weapon group and still cast Fist at the same proficiency level as weapons of the Club group.
Isn't that a case of "if it's too good to be true..."?
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I mean, is it? You're spending your dedication feat to just allow your combat mechanic to work with another type of weapon that's by and large not really all that different than your existing options.
That feels... pretty mediocre?
I'm also not sure how else you'd parse the text of those dedication feats. Giving you proficiency with a different type of weapon is literally the whole point of them.
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If Battle Form attacks were Brawling group? Compare a Fighter's attack bonus to anybody else's when focusing on Brawling.
Without a weapon group, even Fighter isn't better then any other martial class. And Druids can get close with their +2 bonus. So yeah, balance reasons.
That was the intent. But Fighters can take the Martial Artist Dedication and still get their legendary proficiency in unarmed attacks. Then combine that with a high level mutagen for an above average item bonus, or a druid wild shaped for a permanent +2 status bonus for the some of the best attack values in the game.
Are you certain?
"Choose one weapon group. Your proficiency rank increases to master with the simple weapons, martial weapons, and unarmed attacks in that group, and to expert with the advanced weapons in that group. "
The only 'group' that applies to Unarmed attacks is weapons/attacks in the 'Brawling' group of weapons/attacks. So a natural attack from Battle Form, emphatically not being in the 'Brawling' weapon category, would not apply.
The question then would be if the Martial Artist really works that way.
"Whenever you gain a class feature that grants you expert or greater proficiency in certain weapons, you also gain that proficiency rank in all unarmed attacks."
So would getting Master/Legendary in Brawling weapons/attacks, which happen to include Unarmed Fist, but also such things as Simple Knuckle Duster or Martial Pantograph Gauntlet then also count for boosting the base Unarmed skill rank?
I certainly would not mind that being the case (what with being a bit of a Fighter fanboy), but that would mean a Fighter could pick, say, Clubs as his favourite weapon group and still cast Fist at the same proficiency level as weapons of the Club group.
Isn't that a case of "if it's too good to be true..."?
I'm struggling to see any uncertainty here. Yes a fighter can select swords or bows or clubs or brawling as their favourite weapon group. Then Martial Artist expands that to all unarmed attacks. What's unclear?
I'm struggling to see any uncertainty here. Yes a fighter can select swords or bows or clubs or brawling as their favourite weapon group. Then Martial Artist expands that to all unarmed attacks. What's unclear?
What is unclear is whether that is intended or just a glitch caused by poor wording choice.
It would be more in-line with power-level expectations of a level 2 dedication feat for the proficiency to scale along with the proficiency granted by the core class to simple weapons. But that would leave Wizards out in the cold.
So the wording is keyed off of any certain weapons. Which means that Wizard proficiency for their attacks gets to scale. But it also means that Fighter gets to have their legendary proficiency apply to another entire set of attacks.
And that seems a bit above the power curve. The Fighter proficiency went to great care to only allow the higher proficiency rating for the specific weapons chosen. All other weapons that they find have to be used at the normal proficiency. But for some reason, taking a level 2 feat gets to extend that to include any and all unarmed attacks that they ever get their hands on. ??
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It feels weird to try to characterize it as a "glitch" when that word choice specifically enables fighters and rogues. Like, that's the point of phrasing it that way in the first place. I mean we'll see when errata gets published but I'm not convinced.
I'm also not really sure why you think it's so above the power curve. The feat gives you proficiency with some other weapons... that doesn't really do a lot on its own. In terms of enabling things, it's not all that dissimilar from the Barbarian feat that lets them rage with thrown weapons, except that's a first level feat and not a dedication.
... Honestly it seems kind of like a bad idea for most characters, where's the overpowered sentiment coming from?
It feels weird to try to characterize it as a "glitch" when that word choice specifically enables fighters and rogues. Like, that's the point of phrasing it that way in the first place. I mean we'll see when errata gets published but I'm not convinced.
I'm not entirely convinced one way or the other. I can see valid points from both sides of the discussion.
No, I don't think it is game-breaking levels of power. But a lot of unarmed attacks are things that can't be removed from a character - so there is that. They also don't take up a hand, so things that require a free hand still work - like using Snagging Strike and Combat Grab while also using a shield.
What classes would benefit from the dedication's proficiency bump otherwise?
Its changed. With the errata classes like Bard and Rogue and Ranger do actually get proficency in unarmed attacks and it increases normally for them. Compare Nethys with your printed rule book. So it is only the fighters selected weapon group that this effects.
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Also Gunslinger has wording to not allow it specifically which to me implies it is intended for fighters and clerics to get this bump.
That's a good point. Singular Expertise wouldn't need to exist if it was intended to be a general rule.
What classes would benefit from the dedication's proficiency bump otherwise?Its changed. With the errata classes like Bard and Rogue and Ranger do actually get proficency in unarmed attacks and it increases normally for them. Compare Nethys with your printed rule book. So it is only the fighters selected weapon group that this effects.
Interesting. I'm not sure of the dates of change, so I don't know which came first - this errata to give scaling proficiency to unarmed attacks generally, or the APG that printed the Martial Artist archetype.
That's a good point. Singular Expertise wouldn't need to exist if it was intended to be a general rule.
It is a good point.
Though I feel that Fighter Weapon Mastery should have similar language to Singular Expertise - making it clear that the increase in proficiency applies only and exclusively to the weapon group that the player chose for the character to be training with.
But it doesn't and I am aware of that.
Huh. Going with that interpretation and looking at Archer
"Whenever you gain a class feature that grants you expert or greater proficiency in certain weapons, you also gain that proficiency rank in all simple and martial weapons in the bow weapon group. If you are at least an expert in the bow you are using, you gain access to the critical specialisation effect with that bow."
and Mauler
"You become trained in all simple and martial melee weapons that require two hands to wield or have the two-hand trait. Whenever you gain a class feature that grants you expert or greater proficiency in weapons, you also gain that proficiency rank in these weapons. If you are at least an expert in such a weapon, you gain access to the critical specialisation effect with that weapon."
, not only does a Fighter get the proficiency bump, they also get critical specialisation at level 2. While they would usually only get it at level 5, and only for the selected weapon group.
I'm all in favour for Fighters (or martials in general) getting nice things, but that starts to look like something that falls into 'too good to be intentional'.
With Free Archetype shenanigans, one could get a lot of weapons to Legendary at 13th. Okay, as long as ABP isn't a thing, the 'golf-bag of weapons' approach is still stymied by having to shell out for all those fundamental runes, but still...
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Well I don't really like to get into RAI discussions as they are almost pointless on the forums, but these are quite simple and clear rules. So if you don't like it ban it locally or ask for more errata.
Archer and Mauler etc all have use by other classes. It is just Fighters and Gunslingers that have this extra little bit on top. Which means I will always likely be taking one of these types of feats as a Fighter or Gunslinger at some point.