Why does the Commoner's melee attack do 1d4+2 damage with a Strength mod of +3?


Rules Discussion


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From Archives of Nethys: Commoner

While their Strength modifier is +3, their melee attack does 1d4+2 damage, instead of 1d4+3.

From Core Rulebook: Melee damage roll = damage die of weapon or unarmed attack + Strength modifier + bonuses + penalties.

Could someone tell me what I am getting wrong? Is there any penalty implied?


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Non-Player characters do NOT follow the rules for player characters. You can't derive anything from their stats.


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Because 1d4+2 is closer to the expected balance.

In PF1, NPCs and PCs "followed" the same rules. But not really, because Paizo would look at the numbers on a monster, and fiddle with the HD, strength, etc. So you would end up with fey having massive amounts of HD, CR 14 monsters with the strength of the Terrasque, and custom fixes or loot exceptions for class-leveled NPC antagonists at high levels. All to hit certain target numbers.

In PF2, you just give them the target numbers. All of the build rules are now for the PCs, and only an optional alternate tool for making NPCs.


Thanks guys, I didn't know that!

Sovereign Court

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To add to that: what are NPC ability modifiers actually for?

Since their combat numbers get taken directly from a table, not derived from HD and ability scores, why do NPCs even have ability modifiers? Mostly it's for if they have to use a skill they're not trained in. So when you see a level 10 or so monster with a +8 ability, that just means that if they have to make a skill check with that ability, they're probably going to do painfully badly at it, since +8 isn't much against level 10 DCs.


Ascalaphus wrote:

To add to that: what are NPC ability modifiers actually for?

Since their combat numbers get taken directly from a table, not derived from HD and ability scores, why do NPCs even have ability modifiers? Mostly it's for if they have to use a skill they're not trained in. So when you see a level 10 or so monster with a +8 ability, that just means that if they have to make a skill check with that ability, they're probably going to do painfully badly at it, since +8 isn't much against level 10 DCs.

There's that and that theoretically certain cantrips which add an ability modifier for damage might call upon said ability directly... it's really not a lot though. It's probably as much to preserve the sense that they exist as anything else, though I do think answering the question of untrained skills is by far the most likely answer--even if the loss of level to untrained has essentially deposed much of the utility in having those numbers on-hand.


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Attribute scores in general (what a waste of character sheet when they only exist to derive a other score that could just be directly gotten from the boosts system of char gen) and more specifically on monsters was something I brought up in the playtest.

The dev response at the time, I believe, is they were keeping them purely for legacy reason. A certain group if players see them as fundamental to dnd/pf so they continue to exist.


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Ascalaphus wrote:

To add to that: what are NPC ability modifiers actually for?

Since their combat numbers get taken directly from a table, not derived from HD and ability scores, why do NPCs even have ability modifiers? Mostly it's for if they have to use a skill they're not trained in. So when you see a level 10 or so monster with a +8 ability, that just means that if they have to make a skill check with that ability, they're probably going to do painfully badly at it, since +8 isn't much against level 10 DCs.

They're for actions that they creature is "untrained" in.

Bestiary: Introduction pg 5 wrote:
Skills The creature is trained or better in these skills. For untrained skills, use the corresponding ability modifier.
Building Creatures pg 59 GMG wrote:
Most of the time, you’ll just be using ability modifiers for untrained skills

Need to know the athletics DC for a creature that isn't trained in athletics? Check its Strength mod. Can it succeed at the acrobatics check to not fall prone? use the Dex mod. etc.


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Malk_Content wrote:

Attribute scores in general (what a waste of character sheet when they only exist to derive a other score that could just be directly gotten from the boosts system of char gen) and more specifically on monsters was something I brought up in the playtest.

The dev response at the time, I believe, is they were keeping them purely for legacy reason. A certain group if players see them as fundamental to dnd/pf so they continue to exist.

Attribute scores basically continue to exist for PCs so you can roll for them directly in the traditional fashion.

It's less overhead to roll the dice and write down what they say, than to roll {3,4,3,5} and write down "+1".


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Ability scores are also very useful to GM monsters. A -5 Intelligence Ooze will not fight the same way than a +6 Intelligence creature.
Charisma gives a sense of how social a creature is (or can be).
Strength, Dexterity and Constitution can be used for descriptions (dexterous creatures move fast, high Constitution ones are bulky, etc...).

Horizon Hunters

If we didn't have them for players, it would be awkward to explain how boosts work after having a score of 18+. Would you get a "half boost" when you have a +4 or higher? How would you keep track?

I like how they handle it with monsters though, by only having the bonus and not the value.


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Cordell Kintner wrote:

If we didn't have them for players, it would be awkward to explain how boosts work after having a score of 18+. Would you get a "half boost" when you have a +4 or higher? How would you keep track?

I like how they handle it with monsters though, by only having the bonus and not the value.

Tell them they have a score of 4.5? The game rounds down already.

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