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Speaking or Dracula and more specifically Vlad. I highly recommend people to go watch the Extra Credit videos on him. Yeah they are not the most accurate, but they are 100% more accurate than most vampire lore. TLDR, depending on who you ask Vlad was either a monster for impaling people (which he learned from the Ottoman Empire), or a patriotic hero who kept Romania independent despite being surrounded by incredibly powerful countries.
New to Eastern Europe, eh?
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“ Should I be censured on my lets play streams because of it? Should the content I create and sell be disallowed because it offends someone?”
1) how does some writers not wanting to write slavery themed stories anymore censor you in any way possible?
2) that entirely depends on what you’re streaming.
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The bottom line is that, yes, as a content creator, it is possible that content that you create that feels fun for you and your table ends up being problematic for someone else, and not offending anyone is rarely a realistic option…However, who you choose to offend, AND continue to offend, over and over again, when they ask you to stop…we’ll that actually does say a lot about you and your values.
So what content should be avoided, and who should avoid it? Those are subjective questions with a lot of different answers. Paizo being intentional about who they listen to about the impact of their previous content and what is going to be fun, exciting content for them to make into the future is not the end times of fun RPGs.
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This thread feels like a mean-spirited "gift" to drop for the mods during their holiday
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A thinly veiled slippery slope argument seems like a dog whistle.
It only seems like it because that is one of the definitions of dog whistle.
Did we really need yet another thread like this?
No, no we don’t.
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In the end there should be nothing wrong with a company that wants to stop writing about a subject or not have work created for their game because it no longer matches their values. On the other hand, a company should not be made to feel they have to stop creating fictional content because there are those that do not like the content and consider it taboo. I'm not saying that is what happen here but it is happening not just in the TTRPG circle but all works of fiction and art.
No, what's happening is that the writers are going "hey this content really sucks and we don't want to write about it anymore" and Paizo is going "yeah you're right, we're cutting it because clearly it hasn't met our standards thus far".
And then people are going "noooooo we demand a specific type of content to be produced", and it just so happens that content is about slavery.
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One side is making demands. The other is going "nah, bro". One side is also very wrong and misrepresenting the situation.
Also, one individual is being needlessly coy about where he stands, even though it"s pretty obvious to anyone that has seen him around.
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I am heavily medicated
Don't do drugs and post on forums at the same time, it never ends well.
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I am heavily medicatedDon't do drugs and post on forums at the same time, it never ends well.
I'll drink to that!
Oh...wait.
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I don't know if this is the best thread to start, say, six hours before everyone in the company is away on an extended holiday.
I'm going to second this. This thread is a bad idea, regardless of whether or not these issues are worth discussing (they are). With all due respect, OP, I think this thread should be locked until the Holly Days are past.
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I am amazed at the energy some people will spend just to make sure Paizo bows to their will so that slavery stays in future official products.
We want a consistent story that doesn't possess outside influences dampening creative energies of the writers or creating nonsensible retcons of a setting that we are passionate about. Is that really unreasonable to ask?
As an example of the inverse, when art or music gets censored, it's outrageous to me because it means we aren't getting an authentic experience of what the performer or artist genuinely intended for their work to be perceived as. Even if it's extreme, the point is that the artist A. isn't afraid of that extreme, and B. feels that extreme is necessary for their work to convey the message they want to propose to their consumers. It doesn't matter if I don't like it, it doesn't matter if I feel it's too much, because I'm not the creator. And if I don't like it, I can go out and find something else that I do instead.
In my opinion, I don't think Paizo is doing this entirely out of their choice, merely out of influence and coercion from the public, and that's what I have a problem with. That is, the public feels the need to try to censor Paizo's work with outrage and backlash, because it contains themes they aren't personally comfortable with, largely due to trauma that hasn't been (and probably will never be) fully treated.
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Multiple freelancers and developers have spoken out in support of the change, including James Jacobs, so blaming "the public" isn't remotely fair. Hell, Erik Mona explicitly did not make this change in response to the public. He made it in response to a single freelancer's complaint.
We had nothing to do with this. This was internal to the industry.
Feel free to criticize the industry change, but please, people, stop trying to insist this was the "Twitter mob" or something absurd like that. It's very, very obviously Not That.
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Paizo is a publishing company, not an individual artist.
They commission writers and artists to write adventures. I am sure if Eric Mona really wanted to double down on the story of slavery in Absalom and turn it into a full 6 book AP, because it was a story he was dying to tell, then he would have people lining up to pay him to get that story told. But instead, he listened to the response of a book that he really has put his heart and soul into (I mean, he has held it up from going to print to add a ton of content, so one assumes he had a vision for the book) and decided that he was investing his energy into trying to develop a narrative that wasn't going to accomplish what he hoped it would. I don't think that is a very easy thing to do, and honestly, I think he deserves some credit for recognizing that quickly and taking steps to acknowledge the ways in which his work has caused harm to people he had no intention of causing harm.
Notice that you do not hear a lot of stories about individual artists and writers coming forward saying that their work is being changed or manipulated behind their back or against their will. You also have Paizo as a company doing very well with second edition and people responding very favorably to products like the Mwangi Expanse book and the Strength of Thousands AP. Meanwhile the "edgier stuff" like the Agents of Edgewatch AP have, at best, had very mixed to overall negative critical responses.
What is weird to me is how obvious it is that Pathfinder infinite exists exactly to handle the kinds of content that are probably best no longer forced on the brand as a whole, but that it is censorship for a publishing company to have control over what what that brand is going to be.
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I am amazed at the energy some people will spend just to make sure Paizo bows to their will so that slavery stays in future official products.We want a consistent story that doesn't possess outside influences dampening creative energies of the writers or creating nonsensible retcons of a setting that we are passionate about. Is that really unreasonable to ask?
As an example of the inverse, when art or music gets censored, it's outrageous to me because it means we aren't getting an authentic experience of what the performer or artist genuinely intended for their work to be perceived as. Even if it's extreme, the point is that the artist A. isn't afraid of that extreme, and B. feels that extreme is necessary for their work to convey the message they want to propose to their consumers. It doesn't matter if I don't like it, it doesn't matter if I feel it's too much, because I'm not the creator. And if I don't like it, I can go out and find something else that I do instead.
In my opinion, I don't think Paizo is doing this entirely out of their choice, merely out of influence and coercion from the public, and that's what I have a problem with. That is, the public feels the need to try to censor Paizo's work with outrage and backlash, because it contains themes they aren't personally comfortable with, largely due to trauma that hasn't been (and probably will never be) fully treated.
Then you need to be aware of the impact of your own outside influence.
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I am amazed at the energy some people will spend just to make sure Paizo bows to their will so that slavery stays in future official products.We want a consistent story that doesn't possess outside influences dampening creative energies of the writers or creating nonsensible retcons of a setting that we are passionate about. Is that really unreasonable to ask?
You're the outside influence here.
The literal writers have said they don't want to do this any more.
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I hesitate to do this, but I think it would help some understand the kind of attitude and demands that have been going around since the announcements about slavery.
Demand for continuation of slavery content
It should be noted that there was also a extensive and hostile thread by said poster essentially slogging through his... umm... request.
Yes, there have been some rather strongly worded and adamant posting demanding a continued focus on slavery. This was not a one-off thing.
Please accept that it is a topic that gets people worked up, and don't make more work for the mods during their time off.
EDIT: Several posters were making hard demands, and several expressed that they would boycott Paizo over the issue of lack of slavery content. The link to the above poster is the only one who threatened legal action.
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Apropos of nothing, here is what Luis Loza posted in another thread very similar to this one:
As this matter has come up multiple times, I just want to pop in here and let everyone know our stance at the moment, since it seems there's some confusion on how this is exactly being handled.
Slavery will no longer be the focus of our stories, but that doesn't mean it's suddenly been retroactively removed from the setting as if it never existed. Places like Vidrian and Absalom are still defined by their relationship with slavery, even if the practice has been fully ended. We might still bring it up from time to time, such as when noting historic events and the like.
If you want to continue playing heroes that defeat slavers and liberate people, please go ahead. If you want to tell stories that include it to showcase the evil and cruelty of villains, please go ahead. What you should not expect is for us to tell those stories going forward. We won't be doing adventures like Broken Chains and others that keep slavery in the spotlight, even as an institution to dismantle. We understand that this matter, like many other sensitive matters, are not ones that players want to necessarily interface with without having bought in or agreed to it first. Rather than force someone to opt out of these stories, we prefer taking the option of allowing groups to actively choose to include them in their games.
What does this mean for the Firebrands, Bellflower Network, Gray Corsairs, and others? At the moment, nothing. They can still do good and help people in ways that don't require fighting slavers. They might need to help liberated people get established in life. They could work to fight other forms of tyranny. They could go around rescuing the victims of kidnapping. We won't be having them deal with slavery directly going forward, however, and we'll make sure to expand or realign the focus of such groups when we get the chance going forward.
There's going to be a lot of nuance and figuring out exactly where we want other aspects that are tied to or similar to slavery land exactly within the Lost Omens setting. It's going to take work and time to make sure we continue to tell inclusive, exciting, and engaging stories and this will just be another aspect to keep in mind.
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Actually, on several different threads it appeared very much like the discussion was 'how much more lube can we get for our slope'. versus 'Just a concern'.
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Is anyone actually making hard demands? I've not seen anyone calling calling for boycotts or mass email campaigns, calls to smother social media or saying they are canceling their subs until changes are made.
It seems like folks are ascribing a more emotion and effort to other posters than is actually reasonable.
I'm still going to get as much pf2 content as I can afford, even if this change isn't 100% to my liking. I will still talk about what I'd prefer to see, while it is still relevant, but that's as far as it goes. After all paizo don't end to 100% appease me to receive my business. Much like running from an owl bear, they only need to be better than the other guy.
Yep no one is making hard demands. People showed their disagreement with how the situation has been handled by Paizo. Then some people responded by attacking those who showed concern. Some of those attacks even implying that the people with concern are "racist", "want the power fantasy of owning slaves", "are bad for wanting a dark story, in what has up to now been a dark setting", etc.
People have actively said that they understand why Paizo wants to scale down. But disagree with cutting it straight up as opposed to just tuning it way down. But those comments are ignored, to push their own narrative.
We have definitely not read the same threads.
Some people were banned by Paizo mods acting in their official role. AFAIK banned for attacking other posters.
I believe most of those banned were "concerned" with Paizo's decision of not putting slavery in their future products.
So, maybe most attacks were not in the direction you describe.
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It's funny that Paizo and filmmakers are taking very different stances on this issue:
When producer Joseph Gordon-Levitt was asked about this, he admitted seeking an R-Rating for his film, saying that anything less would have been disappointing and that he included extra scenes to assure that he would get it. “If you want to connect with audiences with certain messages, that rating is perfectly appropriate. Life is rated R.” Obviously Hollywood is selling its message and morality to our society and they’re so enamored with the content that they’re willing to lose money (or make far less) to get that message across.
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Actually, on several different threads it appeared very much like the discussion was 'how much more lube can we get for our slope'. versus 'Just a concern'.Given how current media is, that slope even being implied is a concern when it involves a decade old setting that has being dark from the start.
People bought Pathfinder lore for a decade because of the lore being well made. Not because it removed things that trigger people.
The lore is still extremely well made. Just check the Mwangi Expanse or the Monsters books.
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Are you calling Paizo freelancers "triggered"? Please say what you mean. "Triggered" is often used sarcastically to mock people's trauma, but it's strictly meant to be used to reference, well, trauma. So say what you mean up-front. The original complaints were from freelancers within the industry. Are they "triggered" because they are tired of Pathfinder fixating on a topic? Do you think having triggers is something to deride and dismiss over? Buzzwords make your points incoherent.
Anyways, movies are such a different medium from TTRPGs that it's a ridiculous comparison. Movies also feature sexual violence--sometimes very prominently, depending on the narrative. Should Pathfinder feature that, too? If not, why is sexual violence inappropriate but slavery isn't?
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KC, there is an effort to make reasonable people seem unreasonable, and this happens in particular during discussions like this.
I concur with you about the number of dogs barking of late, it's getting so I can't hear myself think at times.
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By the way, some of the most popular buzzwords in this discourse:
"triggered" - What does this mean? Are you mocking people with PTSD, or do you just think it's funny to imply people have it? Or do you just want to turn people into "SJW" bugbears so it's easier to pretend they aren't human?
"Twitter warriors" - Where? Links, please. Erik Mona responded to a freelancer on a blogging website. Do you think Twitter has launched a campaign of harassment against Paizo that only you have managed to detect? Or are you afraid to directly criticize freelancers and developers like James Jacobs, so you're pretending there's some faceless mob that you can say did whatever you like to, again, dehumanize the opposition?
"less dark" - Where has Paizo said they are going to make Pathfinder less dark? Are you unable to conceive of a dark fantasy world that doesn't feature chattel slavery or sexual assault? Is the suffering of social minorities the only "darkness" you take seriously? Is fetishized slavery truly dark, and not just pulpy indulgence in old tropes that white people get to feel comfortable with because they don't have to think about outside their safe fantasy world?
"censorship" - Every author has to pick and choose what to write. They choose which stories to focus on and which stories not to based on, among other things, public preference. This is how the free market works. The lack of emphasis on slavery, however is a choice Paizo has made internally, in response to criticism from freelancers Paizo employs. Do you think some higher power is controlling James Jacobs and forcing him to say "I do not want to write about slavery anymore"?
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They're not really. Paizo doesn't want an R-rated setting, they want a PG-13 rated setting. If they wanted an R-Rated setting they could more than happily go for it.
I'm more talking about how filmmakers want the R and Paizo doesn't. I guess a director or producer probably cares more about acclaim and vision while Paizo just wants market share and sales.
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Do you think only R-rated movies can achieve artistic heights? How strange.
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You know, it's funny. When I think of the most compelling, darkest moments in Game of Thrones, I think of the Red Wedding, or maybe the Season One finale. I guess some people think of the sexual violence scenes? Is that what made Game of Thrones edgy and compelling?
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They're not really. Paizo doesn't want an R-rated setting, they want a PG-13 rated setting. If they wanted an R-Rated setting they could more than happily go for it.I'm more talking about how filmmakers want the R and Paizo doesn't. I guess a director or producer probably cares more about acclaim and vision while Paizo just wants market share and sales.
I mean that example is how ONE particular film maker wanted an R. I can find you many movies that came out over the last five years that do not have an R rating. Probably more than did. So saying that it's the entirety of an industry is a weird statement
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Man, I can't believe Disney is being censored.