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It is amazing to me that in today's marketplace, Paizo continues to charge such incredibly high shipping rates. The vast majority of orders from Walmart, Amazon, Menards, Staples, Home Depot, etc. are free. Hell, even my FLGS ships to my home for free. I just had a 100 pound furniture-quality, fully assembled (including the marble countertop) bathroom vanity delivered (to Illinois from California) by Estes for FREE. They even subcontracted the final delivery through a local company (not USPS, UPS, or FedEx). My S/O who is a former shipper/dispatcher for Estes tells me it was incredibly expensive to ship said item. What does this all mean? Paizo is out of touch charging nearly $10(US) to send a simple flipmap across the continental US, let alone internationally. It reinforces the idea that we should be buying all our Pathfinder, Starfinder, etc. products from alternative sources to avoid delivery charges. The icing is that most of those places also charge less than MSRP for the product.
Don't try to tell me Paizo is some kind of a little mom & pop store. They are a multi-million dollar international publisher and distributor. In today's market, shipping is a cost of doing business. As a customer entering a business, I do not pay their electric/utility bill or their heat/AC as a fee in addition to the products I buy. Likewise, it is not my responsibility to pay for the shipping because the business decided they wanted to peddle their wares across a national/international footprint. YMMV.
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You’re… upset a publisher charges you shipping fees to ship you books?
I ordered a flight jacket last week and paid for shipping. My partner ordered some novels the night before last and had to pay shipping. Every Kickstarter anyone backs for a physical product, they’re charged for shipping. This isn’t some craven, greedy ploy by Paizo, it’s literally the cornerstone of global commerce. I don’t understand the complaint at all.
It’s a fact of the world, made exponentially worse (and more expensive!) by what is soon to be the third straight year of international pandemic.
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have I misunderstood your request?
Paizo should be charging zero for shipping, like most other online retailers. Years ago, shipping to your house was uncommon. You went to the store, bought your items and took them home. Times have changed, retail has shifted to an online model. Shipping is now a cost of doing business as is the case the the majority of online retailers.
Paizo packages their material well. An important consideration for those who collect.
Ask yourself how many returns have you had from the Big Boys because it got trashed during shipping?
I have not experienced this. Paizo's packaging is equivalent to what I receive from most online retailers. The only time I have experienced a packaging issue from from eBay sellers and I do A LOT of online ordering.
I buy all my gaming supplies at FLGSs. If they don't have it in stock I order through them. If I don't like what I order they keep it and give me store credit. For me that's the deal I want.
Exactly. The MSRP of that product is the same whether you buy it from Paizo direct or from your FLGS, except the latter does not charge you shipping even though they had to have it shipped to their store. Not to mention, they don't charge you any additional fees for the operation of their store. That is an operational expense, generally called the cost of doing business. Paizo does not have to maintain a retail store so they avoid the costs associated with it. On top of that, they charge you to ship the product. An added expense you do not incur from your FLGS, Amazon, or most other retailers who sell the exact same item that Paizo is sending you. Not to mention, when Paizo sells direct, they earn a higher portion of the MSRP because they are not selling it at wholesale to pass some of that revenue on to a middle retailer.
tl;dr Paizo should be providing free shipping
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Of course they charge you additional fees.
Oh, how so? The price you pay Paizo is the exact same price you pay the FLGS. There is no additional fee—until you get to the shipping fee. In fact, oft times, you will pay less for a Paizo product from your FLGS or Amazon than from Paizo direct. My FLGS gives a 10% discount off the MSRP of special orders.
It's just that the fees are hidden. They don't pay anywhere near the MSRP. And the difference between what they pay and the MSRP is where the money comes from to pay "the cost of doing business".
Exactly. Those ancillary costs, including the cost of having the product delivered to their store is part of the cost of doing business and you are not charged extra for them.
If they weren't charging you any additional fees, they would just hand over the book for the same price they paid for it.
Umm, no. You seem to be confused about the concept of MSRP. Paizo isn't charging you what the product costs them, neither is the FLGS. The MSRP is the cover price of the product.
The buyer pays for shipping.
I am not paying for shipping when I buy the exact same product I can get from Paizo, when I buy it from my FLGS, Amazon, etc. In most cases, I pay a lower price for the item AND I get free shipping.
Lisa isn't going to buy fewer Star Wars toys and take home a lower salary so that you don't have to pay for shipping. You're paying for it, not her.
Ahh, now we're getting closer to the truth. Jeff Bezos doesn't seems to be missing out on his joy rides to space by providing free shipping. The employees at my FLGS are not suffering from bad compensation packages because the owner decided not to charge customers for shipping. So, are you what suggesting Lisa's greed outweighs customer service?
Whether I'm paying the shop, the Lyft driver, or Paizo, I'm paying a shipping fee.
Only if you are paying a fee not included in the MSRP.
The only way you are paying a shipping fee if you just pay the MSRP is if the shipping fee is included as part of the MSRP. If so, then Pauizo is double charging for shipping since they charge the MSRP AND shipping.I'm actually paying for the convenience of having it arrive on my front porch.
I like the convenience of porch delivery too and I get it from every other online retailer for free, just not from Paizo.
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$20 + $5 shipping => "This is an outrage!"
$25 + free shipping => "Cool, free shipping!"
Except that's a misrepresentation...
$20 + $5 shipping => this is from Paizo$20 => this is from Amazon
People forget that it actually costs actual money to ship a thing from one place to another.
All the other retailers through which we can obtain Paizo's products do not seem to suffer from the cost to ship a thing from one place to another.
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I should qualify this by saying that I am referring to most of the average market; the vast majority of their customers. Yes, I know there are a few places like Australia that are so displaced from the source of the products that shipping and even MSRP have little to no relation to what we experience in the states or a good portion of the urban centers of the world. (we're not talking about Easter Island here).
At this point, it makes little sense for retailers/distributors like Walmart, Amazon, Staples, etc (or their international equivalents) not to have a physical presence in Australia so they can mitigate the use of retail shipping, but that is a topic for another thread.
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FLGS. Sells exactly the same products that Paizo does. Free shipping.
Local bookstore #1. Full service, new retail. Ships nationwide. Free shipping
Local bookstore #2. Primarily resale market. Ships nationwide. Free shipping
Local clothier. Sells retail clothing, but specializes in custom embroidery and silk screening. Free shipping
Local retail shoe store, features repairing worn shoes and work boots. If you ship it to them, they will ship it back for free
Local computer store and repair center. Ships for free to the continental US.
Local lumber store. All residential deliveries of appliances and building materials that will fit on a flat-bed delivery trailer (not sure of the length, but its at least 24ft) are free.
And this doesn't include the 27 auctions I have recently purchased through eBay of which 23 had free shipping.
That's just a two-minute search of my recent online/shipping dealings with single, non-franchise retailers. None enjoy economies of scale, nor monopolies of any kind. They simply absorb shipping as a cost of doing business with a much larger customer pool than they would have if they depended on physical store traffic. If they sell products equivalent to those found in the local "big" stores, the prices are equivalent.
At the end of the day, I really couldn't care less if *YOU* are okay paying fees to Paizo, especially at the rates they charge, but I am not. I am reminding Paizo that they are a dying breed when it comes to charging shipping fees and should seriously reconsider the practice before they push enough customers away to affect their ability to operate. On top of everything else going on, Paizo needs to take a serious look at their entire business model.
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Retailers and Ebay are again, not even in the vicinity of something like Paizo.
"They simply absorb shipping as a cost of doing business"
So raise their prices, gotcha.
Why are you under the impression that shipping prices are a non-issue and completely negligible? They're not. If you demand Paizo eat them, which is rich considering the recent forming of the Union in no small part due to low pay, that cost isn't going to disappear, you're still paying for it one way or another. Otherwise Paizo doesn't make money.
(I'm not really buying that your FLGS sells for less than Paizo and also provides free shipping btw)
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As Amazon had been used as a prime (no pun intended) example, let's take a quick look at that.
Shipping is not free on Amazon. Even if you pay for Amazon Prime, not everything is included. If you pay for Prime, you are currently (according to their website) going to pay
Amazon Prime membership fees are:
$12.99 per month (plus taxes)
$119 per year (plus taxes)
So, if you ordered only your Paizo products from them, that $10 shipping just became $12.99 (or possibly reduces to $9.92 if you can afford to pay it all up front). Amazon banks on people ordering a lot more from them, in part because they have already paid for shipping. Because they are so huge, they have both the infrastructure to manage some of their own deliveries and to secure very favourable contracts for the rest. They also have an increasing reputation for treating their warehouse personnel and paying them even worse than Paizo does theirs.
Paizo may not have storefront costs to deal with but by having a direct to consumer option they have higher storage needs, plus more warehouse and customer service staff needs. They have more complex IT requirements, etc.
It would be much simpler if they just published and sent to distributors and left us all to find our best options for purchasing their products.
Paizo also states that they want people to purchase their products from wherever it makes the most sense to do so. If buying through Amazon works better for you, then do that. Certainly in months where there would be a lot of products shipped, or if you already buy other things through Amazon, it may be the best choice. Not only is no one stopping you, Paizo has publicly stated that it's ok with them.
My understanding is that Paizo also tries for a delicate balance between direct customer service and appeasing the game stores and other outlets. Charging full MRSP and adding actual shipping costs is part of that equation.
I'd like for the market to be ready for an increase in product price, but before that extra goes to shipping, I want to see the creators and other Paizo employees being paid appropriately and have a good working environment. I'd also love to see Paizo products so popular worldwide that they could afford things like free shipping for subscribers without it affecting local sales. I'd like to see them with several international hubs too, so that those of us who are currently doubling the price of products by having them shipped internationally, had more affordable options.
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Notice how the people who have been accused of wanting to burn Paizo to the ground are defending Paizo's shipping practices here?
It's almost like they don't want to burn Paizo to the ground, and where just voicing legitimate concerns about discrimination and mismanagement and mistreatment of workers because they care about the company and its products.
Demanding free shipping while the union struggles to get fair pay for workers, and creators have been struggling to deal with negativity, is pretty callous.
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Right now, I could buy the Absalom and Monsters of Myth through Amazon and save around 60 dollars in shipping to Peru. So, yes, Paizo shipping is excessive, it barely compensates the free pdf which not really that big of a bonus since AoN is a better tool for rule searching.
Humbly,
Yawar
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Paizo packages their material well. An important consideration for those who collect.
Ask yourself how many returns have you had from the Big Boys because it got trashed during shipping? Do they have a "no hassle" return policy? Sure, but let's be honest, returning something is still a hassle.
More importantly, Paizo is selling a certain service for the vast majority of their shipping and for that portion of their customer base the shipping costs are baked-in to their consideration.
I buy all my gaming supplies at FLGSs. If they don't have it in stock I order through them. If I don't like what I order they keep it and give me store credit. For me that's the deal I want.
YMMV
I would like to point out that in my many years of buying stuff from Paizo I've never had a package get damaged.
The box has occasionally gone to hell and back but everything in the box was in mint condition.
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"Lets compare Amazon, one of the most despicably predatory businesses in history, who do what they do to try to kill their competition while making their employees work through a tornado, to Paizo -- whom have recently come under fire for terrible treatment of employees, but at least they don't force people to work during a tornado."
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Are you implying that the average consumer cares more about the salary of the delivery man than cheap prices? Because it is them that determine which business practices are successful.
Humbly,
Yawar
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Are you implying that the average consumer cares more about the salary of the delivery man than cheap prices? Because it is them that determine which business practices are successful.
Humbly,
Yawar
yes it's actually totally normal and cool to be fine with bad things for the sake of convenience
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Paizo's business model is centered about you subscribing and the free PDF having so much value that it leaves the proposition attractive even against Amazon's free/cheap shipping + discount.
Which, frankly, checks out for international orders as long as you stick to softcovers (or rather used to check out, but that's on EU not Paizo).
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The Emperor declares a new crusade: Shipping fees!
The shift to free shipping is pretty recent, as others have mentioned. If you just compare the revenues of Paizo and Amazon you will notice that your expectations are a little out of the realm of reasonable.
Amazon in 2020 made a net revenue of 386 billion USD.
For Paizo, a private company who isn't obligated or practices transparency for their financials, lets just say somewhere between 10-50 mil USD annually.
You can stick any reasonable number there but the reason that Amazon can support free shipping is because of their unprecedented amount of liquid capital (And worker exploitation, lets not forget that). Not to mention that Amazon has their own shipping fleet who does it for them, built into the financial model.
You're comparing apples to an M1 Abrams tank.
Edit: I will echo the point being made that fair treatment of workers are not important than your entitlement to free shipping. My comments are only to indicate that complaints that its unacceptable that they dont provide free shipping is a farce. Paizo is not obligated to share their financials so you're shouting about something that you're only seeing one side of.
They seem to have had trouble in the past affording office cleaning services, so why are you expecting free shipping?
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I don't know how to tell you that yes, you should care about other human beings more than your hobby. If shipping costs are so detrimental to you nobody is forcing you to buy from Paizo.com.
Yes, people probably should care more about other people than they do. The issues is, exactly, that they don't and buying from Amazon is way cheaper than buying from Paizo. That is lost revenue for Paizo.
Humbly,
Yawar
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In the year of 2021, with clear access to the internet, someone still thinks Free Shipping is free.
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I think the point Yawar is trying make is that it’s not about not caring which I do about how horrible Amazon treats it’s employees. It’s that it won’t stop them from doing it as too many would rather have the convenience of Amazon delivery, free shipping and next day shipping.
It would imo require at least a 50% dip in profits before it would happens. With a big group of Amazon customers willing to do so.
Unfortunately most buyers imo are not willing to pay more for shipping whatever the reason. The first choice is usually Amazon for perhaps too many.
Well that is as bad as someone asking 1$ a book for used D&D books. At that price I might as well give them away.
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This is only really tangential to TK’s original post, but it is related.
I honestly don’t mind paying for shipping, but the shipping and delivery times are horrible, and they always have been, even pre-pandemic. I mean, I don’t need stuff over night, but 10 days or so get an item isn’t very reasonable, I don’t think.
So, I’m not asking for free shipping, and I don’t think it’s reasonable to ask for it. But, I would like better delivery speed when business is back to its regular operating environment (and if things are still the case where CS isn’t 100% back to pack and ship stuff on a regular basis, then I accept there will be delay).
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Paizo will tell you to buy your books however is best for you. Yeah they'd prefer you subscribe, but they understand that's not always an option. They still make money off the books that Amazon sells, unless you think Amazon gets those by magic.
Paizo has also stated that they depend on their subscription model to predict print volume and cash flows. Also, whatever commission Amazon takes for selling books from Paizo is the lost revenue I was talking about.
Or to put the issue I was exposing in simpler terms, Paizo would prefer you would buy directly from them, but, arguably, is not giving enough incentives to do so.
Maybe my issues only applies to South America or Peru deliveries, but the shipping cost differences (no free shipping to here) justify buying the PDFs and books apart rather than subscribing. Plus I can track through Amazon, but not through Paizo.
Humbly,
Yawar
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It is pretty much anything international. But then Amazon and other large companies ship first to a hub (or keep a warehouse in the EU) and then dispatch further. Paizo does not, which does not help …… but then also Fantasy Flight had the same model, as does Dwarven Forge.
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At the end of the day, I really couldn't care less if *YOU* are okay paying fees to Paizo, especially at the rates they charge, but I am not. I am reminding Paizo that they are a dying breed when it comes to charging shipping fees and should seriously reconsider the practice before they push enough customers away to affect their ability to operate.
At the close of business I really have zero figs to give about whether you are okay with shipping fees or not, I am. This is simply letting Paizo be aware that they are in common company in charging such fees rather than passing such costs on to all customers by simply raising prices across the board, this is an acceptable business practice and I for one am more than happy to pay such fees.