Shield boss is listed as a weapon right. Could you use your drifter initiative ability to draw a shield boss (and in turn the shield attached to it)? Could you use the drifter reload to reload and strike with the shield boss?
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
A shield has to be strapped to your forearm.
Strapping ( as well as unstrapping ) requires 1 interact action ( which has the manipulate trait ).
A buckler is the only shield that mentions being strapped to your forearm, from the descriptions on page 277 of the CRB. Table 6-2 does say it takes an Interact action to "detach a shield or item strapped to you", but I assumed that referred only to strapped shields (like a buckler), not all shields. I also don't see anything in the table that says how many actions it takes to attach a strapped item.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
A buckler is the only shield that mentions being strapped to your forearm, from the descriptions on page 277 of the CRB. Table 6-2 does say it takes an Interact action to "detach a shield or item strapped to you", but I assumed that referred only to strapped shields (like a buckler), not all shields. I also don't see anything in the table that says how many actions it takes to attach a strapped item.A shield has to be strapped to your forearm.
Strapping ( as well as unstrapping ) requires 1 interact action ( which has the manipulate trait ).Buckler is only a for description purposes, because it shows how you can benefit from the free hand.
What you are looking for is that table which explain the number of actions required to make a proper use of shields and other items
It doesn't mention a buckler, but shields.
So shields, to be properly used as either weapon and shield ( raise shield or shield block ), have to strapped with an interaction ( you can't drop a broken one for free, so you'd need to use 1 interact to detach, 1 free to drop, 1 interact to draw and 1 interact to strap ).It's only a matter of action management.
I specifically mentioned that table in my post. And as I said, there's nothing in the table that says how many actions it takes to attach a strapped item.
I agree that if you have a shield strapped to you, you need to spend an Interact action to detach it, but I don't see anything that says a non-buckler shield needs to be strapped to you in order to use it. A single line in the Changing Equipment table saying what kind of action it takes to detach a strapped shield does not mean that every shield needs to be strapped to use it.
The rules and descriptions for shields on pg. 277 have exactly one mention of strapping a shield to you - in the description for bucklers. For all other shields, we use the general rule for shields which says that it must be held in one hand.
While searching for examples of drawing a shield, I found the Second Shield feat from the Viking archetype. This feat lets you Interact to draw a new shield as a free action when your current shield is broken or destroyed. There's no mention of detaching the current shield or attaching the new one. How does this feat even function if you need to spend an Interact action to detach your old shield? It does have a line at the end reminding that you need to take a Raise a Shield action to raise the new shield. If benefitting from a shield requires that you both Interact to attach it and Raise a Shield, it would be really weird if the reminder line at the end of Second Shield only mentioned one of those two actions.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The viking feat is like the exception, since you'll be using random stuff in order to get cover or even a shield block.
The reason is simply that it would be impossible to find srapped chairs, tables or bench ( or anything else your character would like to use as improvised shield ) to beings with.
Saying that since a table or chair is not build to have straps in order to be attached to the character's forearm then even shields don't require to follow the rules in the table is kinda forcing things out of a single archetype ( which has to work that specific way, because hardness and hit points would probably be lower than a lvl 4 sturdy shield, in addition to not havign straps by default. ).
That still doesn't address any of my other points, nor does it answer how Second Shield is supposed to function if shields must be strapped, since the feat has no mention of unstrapping your broken shield.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Again, it's an archetype outside the CRB comparing to CRB rules ( which specifically refer to "shield" and not "buckler" ).
No it isn't. Their position is that nothing in the CRB supports that in the first place. Viking is just being used as an example of intent to back their argument up.
|
A buckler is a shield, so any rule that affects shields affects bucklers.
And if bucklers were the only strapped shields, it would have been both simpler and better for word count to speak about bucklers rather than strapped shields.
There is actually ZERO evidence that supports the idea that the non-buckler shields are not strapped.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
There is actually ZERO evidence that supports the idea that the non-buckler shields are not strapped.Well, there's the Viking archetype feat "second Shield" we are discussing about.
If paizo will ever errata this one ( whether the table, the viking feat, or both of them ), regardless the outcome, it's definitely going to be a great win for everybody.
Gonna be lucky enough that a dev sees this discussion.
The Second Shield feat applies to any shield. Thus it applies to bucklers. So it applies to strapped shields.
How is it any evidence here ?
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Detach a shield or item strapped to youI see no room for misunderstanding here.
There is a huge amount of room for misunderstanding here - it can either be interpreted as;
Detach a shield OR an item that is strapped to you
or
Detach a shield strapped to you OR an item that is strapped to you
It all comes down to the lack of an oxford comma, which is something paizo doesn't use consistently. (I've seen a bunch of cases where they use one, and a bunch of cases where they don't use one but the RAI is as if they did use one - the problem is that the oxford comma is something that some people use and some don't, so any sentence in which it isn't present is open to interpretation).
We simply can't know for sure whether "strapped to you" is intended to be a description of the shield and item, or just the item, until it is clarified in an errata.
Until then, I would personally go with the interpretation that breaks less things in the system (which is the version where it doesn't need an oxford comma, as the straps thing breaks viking and seriously hampers the utility of guns and gears letting you put the thrown trait onto a shield) but going either way is a valid interpretation.
|
|
There is actually ZERO evidence that supports the idea that the non-buckler shields are not strapped.Well, there's the Viking archetype feat "second Shield" we are discussing about.
If paizo will ever errata this one ( whether the table, the viking feat, or both of them ), regardless the outcome, it's definitely going to be a great win for everybody.
Gonna be lucky enough that a dev sees this discussion.
The Second Shield feat applies to any shield. Thus it applies to bucklers. So it applies to strapped shields.
How is it any evidence here ?
Now I am not sure I am properly follow you.
What they are pointing out is not that only applies to all shields ( as well as furnitures ), but that explicitally calls out that "Your new shield isn't raised until you use the Raise a Shield action, as normal".
Which means, "though you have drawn it, you still require to raise it to benefit from its AC and to trigger the shield block reaction".
What they are calling out is that the feat doesn't mention that the shield needs to be strapped before being used, and because so that all shields don't need to be strapped to be used.
This would mean that they can be dropped as a free action and there won't be any interact action to either strap or unstrap them.
The evidence would be this.
Then, since a buckler is a shield, by that reading, it would not need to be strapped to be used. Nice to know that no shield (and thus no buckler) actually requires an action to unstrap it before releasing it.
Now I just need to convince my PFS GMs.
|
|
The key thing is that (imo)
"detach a shield" could simply be talking about shields that need strapping.
It doesn't conclusively say that all shields need to be strapped, just that those take an action to unstrap.
This has further mechanical implications :
A strapped shield as an example wouldn't be dropped if you fall unconscious, a held one would. And etc.I too am of the mind that not all shields are automatically strapped.
Good point about dropping the shield when unconscious.
Do people really require a sword and board fighter to spend his whole turn after being brought back in the fight doing nothing but standing up (action 1), retrieving their dropped weapon (action 2) and retrieving their dropped shield (action 3) ?
Do all PCs using a shield actually have to declare beforehand whether it is strapped or merely held ?
Or do we have the Schrodinger shield that is in a state of uncertainty until the PC needs to drop it (and then it was merely held) or needs to pick it up after being downed (and then it was actually strapped all along) ?
I will go with the far simpler ruling that all shields are strapped.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I will go with the far simpler ruling that all shields are strapped.
Not sure that's really a simpler ruling when it comes into direct conflict with other options as stated above.
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
The problem is with the reading of the line. Either:
1) Detach a <shield or item> strapped to you
Or
2) Detach a <shield> or <item strapped to you>
I for one interpret it as option 1, meaning that if a shield is strapped to you it takes 1 action to unstrap. The second reading infers that all shields take 1 action to unstrap regardless.
As for OP's question, no. A shield with an attached weapon is not considered a weapon. Just like how attaching a Reinforced Stock to a gun won't make it suddenly count as a melee weapon. Attachments are just that, attachments, they don't change anything about the item they're attached to.
As for OP's question, no. A shield with an attached weapon is not considered a weapon. Just like how attaching a Reinforced Stock to a gun won't make it suddenly count as a melee weapon. Attachments are just that, attachments, they don't change anything about the item they're attached to.
Uh, what? Attached weapons are absolutely weapons. They have a listing in the weapons section with their own Price, Damage, Bulk, Hands Value, Category, Group type, and Traits.
Speaking of traits, here's the Attached trait.
An attached weapon must be combined with another piece of gear to be used. The trait lists what type of item the weapon must be attached to. You must be wielding or wearing the item the weapon is attached to in order to attack with it. For example, shield spikes are attached to a shield, allowing you to attack with the spikes instead of a shield bash, but only if you're wielding the shield. An attached weapon is usually bolted onto or built into the item it's attached to, and typically an item can have only one weapon attached to it. An attached weapon can be affixed to an item with 10 minutes of work and a successful DC 10 Crafting check; this includes the time needed to remove the weapon from a previous item, if necessary. If an item is destroyed, its attached weapon can usually be salvaged.
Emphasis mine. You're right in that the attached trait doesn't change anything about the item they're attached to. They don't have to. Your wielding the item AND the attached weapon. Reloading strike requires you to wield a one-handed melee weapon. A shield boss is listed under Melee Weapons and has Hands 1. You can use it with reloading strike just fine.
|
|
I do, because thats the rules. Behooves people to not bounce down and up constantly (maybe spending those Hero points on not going down in the first place) have non drop able back ups (a gauntlet), be happy to make a "sub optimal" dramatic choice in a tense moment (how many movies have the knocked down character reach for their weapon and swing desperately from the floor) or value feats like Quick Draw and Kip Up.
Do people really require a sword and board fighter to spend his whole turn after being brought back in the fight doing nothing but standing up (action 1), retrieving their dropped weapon (action 2) and retrieving their dropped shield (action 3) ?
So, when do you ask the player whether their shield is strapped or held ?
|
|
Do people really require a sword and board fighter to spend his whole turn after being brought back in the fight doing nothing but standing up (action 1), retrieving their dropped weapon (action 2) and retrieving their dropped shield (action 3) ?
This is within the rule.
Swordmaster's Reflexive Grip is a good example
You keep hold of your weapons even when knocked out. You gain a +2 circumstance bonus to your Reflex DC when defending against checks to Disarm you. In addition, when you fall unconscious, you don't drop any weapons that you're currently wielding, though somebody else can remove them from you.Combine this with kip up and you have your character back with no action requirements.
I think that now that a shield can have the thrown trait it has to be accepted that shields are not strapped, but simply wielded as weapons.
Reflexive Grip does not apply to a shield though.
TBT, that there is no such feat to keep hold of your shield makes it more likely that shields are supposed to be strapped IMO.
And Thrown shield goes unstrap, throw, pick up, strap. Isn't this how Captain America usually does it ?
|
|
Now that does sound like prohibitive action economy.
Do people really require a sword and board fighter to spend his whole turn after being brought back in the fight doing nothing but standing up (action 1), retrieving their dropped weapon (action 2) and retrieving their dropped shield (action 3) ?
This is within the rule.
Swordmaster's Reflexive Grip is a good example
You keep hold of your weapons even when knocked out. You gain a +2 circumstance bonus to your Reflex DC when defending against checks to Disarm you. In addition, when you fall unconscious, you don't drop any weapons that you're currently wielding, though somebody else can remove them from you.Combine this with kip up and you have your character back with no action requirements.
I think that now that a shield can have the thrown trait it has to be accepted that shields are not strapped, but simply wielded as weapons.
Reflexive Grip does not apply to a shield though.
TBT, that there is no such feat to keep hold of your shield makes it more likely that shields are supposed to be strapped IMO.
And Thrown shield goes unstrap, throw, pick up, strap. Isn't this how Captain America usually does it ?
Balances the versatility of having a single weapon that you can use to raise shield, melee attack, ranged attack and keep in hand when unconscious IMO.
I have a feeling not a lot of people will like this argument, but it has to be mentioned. Yes, there's a lot we can go to the rulebook for, and we can try to look at the specific intent of words and commas (or lack thereof), etc.
BUT... we can also use some irl logic here (I realize I've just lost most people, but I'm going to finish my point anyway). Google image search shield for me, and just take a look at a few of them. Perhaps even find some where you can see it from the back, or some where someone's actively wielding it... Do all of those look like they're meant to be strapped to your forearm? Or does that seem like more of a feature that some have and others don't?
Yes, Captain America has a strapped shield, yet somehow he throws it and accepts its return in a fluid motion. Which means he can't be built using current PF2 rules, not until there's a shield-based archetype introduced (as there had been in PF1) w/ the feats to overcome the action economy.
Notice how awkwardly other character wield it, w/ Falcon essentially doing a retraining montage to adapt (or maybe training since he's likely leveling up after all that fighting!).
Personally, I agree that shield have straps to be strapped on and yet I can see it implied that shields do not have to be strapped on. So I'd have the player choose whether they want to or not, the downside of course being one can drop (maybe even lose) their shield if it's not strapped on, but in turn they're one more action away from using that arm/hand for other purposes.
The buckler seems to require strapping on, but why wouldn't somebody anyway since they already can switch between using that hand or not.
|
|
I have a feeling not a lot of people will like this argument, but it has to be mentioned. Yes, there's a lot we can go to the rulebook for, and we can try to look at the specific intent of words and commas (or lack thereof), etc.
BUT... we can also use some irl logic here (I realize I've just lost most people, but I'm going to finish my point anyway). Google image search shield for me, and just take a look at a few of them. Perhaps even find some where you can see it from the back, or some where someone's actively wielding it... Do all of those look like they're meant to be strapped to your forearm? Or does that seem like more of a feature that some have and others don't?
Actually, it's a mess. Just learned about the guige neck-strap for shields thanks to your invitation. All of this is extremely interesting, but does not help here.
Based on everything I saw, I would ask any player with a shield-using PC whether their shield (except the buckler) is strapped or held, after clarifying the consequences. And allow Nimble Shield Hand to work only with a strapped shield.
|
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Pathfinder tries to offer choice - but 2e also tries to exact consequences based on the choice.
Strapped:
The hand is free
You can't drop it
Takes extra action to unstrap
Held:
The hand is occupied
You can drop it
No extra action to unstrap
If you use a buckler, you likely do so to have a free hand. So you want it strapped. Otherwise the buckler is just an inferior shield - all the disadvantages, no advantages.
For a shield it seems the advantages for holding it outweigh the disadvantages. Unless you have the feat Nimble Shield Hand you can't hold anything else anyhow and can't really use the hand.
For example battle medicine. Assuming your other hand holds a weapon then you need a buckler and have it strapped or a shield / strapped and Nimble Shield Hand to be able to use it without dropping/storing items.
As GM I assume as default:
Buckler strapped
Shield held
Shield if player has Nimble Shield Hand - strapped
Otherwise - let me know ahead of a fight. I might tolerate a different decision once - but then this will be the default for the rest of the game.
Yes - ideally I would ask ahead of time - but it is one of these seldom used rules/options that you only realize the moment it makes a difference that you should have asked ahead of time (player wants to drop shield as he wants to do battle medicine on dying comrade without dropping weapon or he doesn't want to drop shield when going unconscious him/herself).
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
As for OP's question, no. A shield with an attached weapon is not considered a weapon. Just like how attaching a Reinforced Stock to a gun won't make it suddenly count as a melee weapon. Attachments are just that, attachments, they don't change anything about the item they're attached to.Uh, what? Attached weapons are absolutely weapons. They have a listing in the weapons section with their own Price, Damage, Bulk, Hands Value, Category, Group type, and Traits.
Speaking of traits, here's the Attached trait.
An attached weapon must be combined with another piece of gear to be used. The trait lists what type of item the weapon must be attached to. You must be wielding or wearing the item the weapon is attached to in order to attack with it. For example, shield spikes are attached to a shield, allowing you to attack with the spikes instead of a shield bash, but only if you're wielding the shield. An attached weapon is usually bolted onto or built into the item it's attached to, and typically an item can have only one weapon attached to it. An attached weapon can be affixed to an item with 10 minutes of work and a successful DC 10 Crafting check; this includes the time needed to remove the weapon from a previous item, if necessary. If an item is destroyed, its attached weapon can usually be salvaged.Emphasis mine. You're right in that the attached trait doesn't change anything about the item they're attached to. They don't have to. Your wielding the item AND the attached weapon. Reloading strike requires you to wield a one-handed melee weapon. A shield boss is listed under Melee Weapons and has Hands 1. You can use it with reloading strike just fine.
You are missing the point. "You must be wielding or wearing the item the weapon is attached to in order to attack with it." This does not mean the Shield becomes a weapon, only that you must be wielding the shield in order to use the weapon attached to it. If an ability asks you to draw a weapon, the shield doesn't count because shields aren't weapons. Attaching a weapon to a shield does not make the shield into a weapon.
A better example of this is a Wheelchair with Wheel Spikes. Do the Wheel Spiked make the chair into a weapon? No, of course not. The weapon is the spikes themselves, not the item they are attached to.
You are missing the point. "You must be wielding or wearing the item the weapon is attached to in order to attack with it." This does not mean the Shield becomes a weapon, only that you must be wielding the shield in order to use the weapon attached to it. If an ability asks you to draw a weapon, the shield doesn't count because shields aren't weapons. Attaching a weapon to a shield does not make the shield into a weapon.
A better example of this is a Wheelchair with Wheel Spikes. Do the Wheel Spiked make the chair into a weapon? No, of course not. The weapon is the spikes themselves, not the item they are attached to.
OH! You're talking about drawing the item with Into The Fray, not making a Reloading Strike!
Oh, yeah, agree completely.
Attaching a weapon to a shield does not make the shield into a weapon.
So what, draw the shield boss and the rest of the shield comes with it because they're attached?
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Attaching a weapon to a shield does not make the shield into a weapon.So what, draw the shield boss and the rest of the shield comes with it because they're attached?
The you would be holding the weapon not the shield, meaning you aren't wielding the shield, and thus can't use the weapon.
Basically, holding shield spikes by the spikes isn't very helpful.