Storm Giant Spell Issue

[SpartanCPA]

The Storm Giant is listed as being able to cast Control Weather as a level 5 At Will Innate spell. Control Weather is a level 8 ritual.

This is obviously an error, but I'm not sure if the Storm Giant should have a Rituals entry, or if the spell should actually be something else, like Control Water?

[Asethe]

It isn't a mistake; your wizard has to spend a day mumbling at a magic circle with some friends to raise a breeze with some falling water. A Storm Giant can just make it storm, or sleet, or shine, or whatever takes its fancy at will. It's cast at 5th level for purposes of counter checks.

[graystone]

SpartanCPA wrote:

The Storm Giant is listed as being able to cast Control Weather as a level 5 At Will Innate spell. Control Weather is a level 8 ritual.

This is obviously an error, but I'm not sure if the Storm Giant should have a Rituals entry, or if the spell should actually be something else, like Control Water?

Innate Spells, Rulebook pg. 302: "If you have an innate spell, you can cast it, even if it's not of a spell level you can normally cast. This is especially common for monsters, which might be able to cast innate spells far beyond what a character of the same level could use."

So not an error and they can cast it as is.

[Claxon]

SpartanCPA wrote:

The Storm Giant is listed as being able to cast Control Weather as a level 5 At Will Innate spell. Control Weather is a level 8 ritual.

This is obviously an error, but I'm not sure if the Storm Giant should have a Rituals entry, or if the spell should actually be something else, like Control Water?

No, it's not obviously an error. Monsters get to break the rules. The rules are generally presented as what player characters have access to, not the monsters.

Trying to make monsters (and NPCs) follow the same rules as players is what causes so many weird issues with D&D 3.X and PF1. That they then try to patch via weird additions, which don't really work as intended.

See natural armor on high level enemies. But if you can ignore natural armor, suddenly they're as protected as a glass egg.

[SpartanCPA]

The reason I consider it to be obviously a mistake is not that it is downgraded to level 8, but that it is a ritual that has been made into a normal spell. Is the cast time altered in any way? Do they still need the Expert level Nature check to determine the effect. There are just so many rules that seem to not work correctly by making it an at will normal spell.

[Cordell Kintner]

I agree, it seems to be an error. Rituals do not use Spell Slots, so having an "at will" ritual seems wrong. Creatures can have Rituals in their stat blocks; many demons have Abyssal Pact and Angels have Angelic Messenger. I just think this one slipped through, since Control Weather used to be a normal spell, and the editor just saw it and thought it looked fine.

It should be under an "Arcane Ritual" section in the stat block, or they need to add a line to their stat block saying the following:

"Storm Giants can cast the Control Weather Ritual as an Innate Spell. When cast this way, the casting time is reduced to {however many actions}."

[Claxon]

SpartanCPA wrote:

The reason I consider it to be obviously a mistake is not that it is downgraded to level 8, but that it is a ritual that has been made into a normal spell. Is the cast time altered in any way? Do they still need the Expert level Nature check to determine the effect. There are just so many rules that seem to not work correctly by making it an at will normal spell.

I would say it's incomplete, but you make it sound like having the ritual as an innate spell is generally an error, but I simply can't agree that such a statement is true.

I could agree the developers have made a mistake in the sense that they haven't provided all the detail to know how it should work for a GM.

[HumbleGamer]

I agree it seems to be an error ( as Cordell said, it should be under arcane ritual ).

Sometimes we can find errors in the bestiary, for example the Lillend

It lacks a focus pool, and has Inspire heroics as a lvl 4 spell.

Definitely an oversight ( they should have stated the creature's focus pool as well as its focus spells ).

[Nefreet]

SpartanCPA wrote:

The reason I consider it to be obviously a mistake is not that it is downgraded to level 8, but that it is a ritual that has been made into a normal spell. Is the cast time altered in any way? Do they still need the Expert level Nature check to determine the effect. There are just so many rules that seem to not work correctly by making it an at will normal spell.

The Storm Giant isn't a Player option; it's solely under control of the GM. And "If you’re ever uncertain how to apply a rule, the GM decides".

[Squiggit]

Nefreet wrote:

SpartanCPA wrote:

The reason I consider it to be obviously a mistake is not that it is downgraded to level 8, but that it is a ritual that has been made into a normal spell. Is the cast time altered in any way? Do they still need the Expert level Nature check to determine the effect. There are just so many rules that seem to not work correctly by making it an at will normal spell.

The Storm Giant isn't a Player option; it's solely under control of the GM. And "If you’re ever uncertain how to apply a rule, the GM decides".

I'm not sure that's really relevant here. As a GM, I'm not sure how the ability is supposed to work because the rules for innate spells and rituals don't really align at all and because of that I'm not sure if it's even intended to work this way at all.

Yes, I can wing it and make up a solution... but that doesn't make what's printed any clearer.

[HumbleGamer]

Not to say that you can summon it through the summon giant spell.

Control weather requires 1 day, has no exact number of actions requirement, it's under the "arcane innate spell list", it's a ritual and so on.

I agree with Squiggit that's no relevant here.

[Nefreet]

HumbleGamer wrote:

Not to say that you can summon it through the summon giant spell.

That's a 9th level spell, though.

I'd hope the players and GM have developed a solid line of communication by then.

[HumbleGamer]

Nefreet wrote:

HumbleGamer wrote:

Not to say that you can summon it through the summon giant spell.

That's a 9th level spell, though.

I'd hope the players and GM have developed a solid line of communication by then.

Depends whether the DM and the players experienced that specific creatured on their way to lvl 17.

If they happened to look at the creature and realize the issue the yes, I agree they already know how to deal with it ( how they decided to deal with it back then ).