Synthesist and Unfettered eidolons were some of my favorite parts of 1e.
Are there any good builds or paths using the Meld with Eidolon feat that can get something like it?
Or just some way to make it a good investment in general?
I could have missed something, but one of my biggest disappointments with Summoner (disclaimer: I love the class overall) is that almost nothing seems to synergize with Meld With Eidolon.
I could have missed something, but one of my biggest disappointments with Summoner (disclaimer: I love the class overall) is that almost nothing seems to synergize with Meld With Eidolon.
Yep!
There's little direct advantage in meld. The main advantage is for movement. You can use meld with things like Airborne Form, Miniaturize and others things useful during exploration where movement or shape benefits of your eidolon could be useful for you too. (access some place flying or enter in small places where only tiny creatures can enter).
But during encounters usually is way better stay out supporting or attacking with it.
Thematically you can "get something like it" via Meld with Eidelon alone.
In terms of melee dominance (et al), no, you can't. As MaxAstro stated, there's no synergy, and I'd add no loopholes either.
You can make a serviceable melee combatant who has access to some distinct abilities, but nothing any other Summoner couldn't get on their Eidelon. And they're firing off Cantrips for bonus damage, as well as getting twice as many Perception rolls among other things.
Melded, you could use Ostentatious Arrival freely which is pretty neat for an action you're already taking. Or are you? I'd expect party members might be adjacent plus why would you be in dangerous territory w/o wearing your Eidelon if that's your shtick? (Not to mention being surrounded in round one means somebody's goofed.)
So why bother to meld in PF2? (Other than for the imagery of turning into a robot, monster, werewolf, etc. which IMO is pretty cool.)
Because maybe you've found your Summoner is the weak link. Maybe (like w/ an under-supported Animal Companion) you realize that many actions will get wasted trying to keep the caster alive! And the Eidelon being in position while the Summoner fires off Cantrips is an ideal situation (and IMO the point of the class, much like a Magus gets a Strike + Cantrip in their signature ability), yet maybe that situation's too infrequent for the hassle/risk/whatever. Keeping both creatures in play, while also keeping both safe, while having only 3+1 actions per round to share isn't the easiest thing. And it's one less creature that needs a Resist Energy (etc) or who might succumb to that AoE Confusion spell.
As for builds, you don't have to stress about the Summoner's Dex & AC if they'll always be cocooned. Nor about much else actually except Con for hit points. Even Charisma becomes secondary as you'll likely only cast outside of combat (which is definitely the main loss to balance against the gains). Note that many abilities do use your spell DC; you'd want to avoid those. So there's not much of a draw re: build, is there?
That all said, I do have an idea for a Dwarf whose bad Charisma would make him a poor contributor anyway. So I'll put him in his shell and fight, but the main attraction is thematic rather than mechanical. There's nothing tactically special about him being melded though I can pile feats into the Eidelon w/ no reservations.
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OMG, YuriP, I hadn't even thought of melding with a tiny Eidelon!
The reach might be an issue, and two feats is kinda pricey, but that'd be so cool to have a PC's level of punch in a tiny package.
"Oh look at the cute bunny!" "Rowrggh!"
I could have missed something, but one of my biggest disappointments with Summoner (disclaimer: I love the class overall) is that almost nothing seems to synergize with Meld With Eidolon.
I think Meld with Eidolon was put in as a feat to set the basis for a Synthesist. They plan to make a Synthesis Archetype where you get the feat for free when you take the archetype. Then it builds upon that feat through archetype feats.
You make some good points, Castilliano.
I never did Synthesist for the power. I did it to play the outsider or someone who was working at transitioning to an outsider, or other creature as the types became available.
You make some good points, Castilliano.
I never did Synthesist for the power. I did it to play the outsider or someone who was working at transitioning to an outsider, or other creature as the types became available.
Thanks. :-)
More has occurred to me as I work on mine, the main drawback being that a lot of the non-class combat feats don't matter; they're bonuses to yourself so won't apply to your Eidelon, the only one who'll be entering combat. That's a key difference from the PF1 Synthesist. And many of the noncombat feats are social, tied to Charisma, meaning tanking Charisma devalues those. This leaves few options, especially if Crafting lacks appeal. Oi.
And I really, really want Eidelon's Wrath so maybe don't want to tank the Charisma at all, which kind of means I should be casting w/ my Summoner which causes ripples in my stat line. Hmm.
Le sigh...
I guess we just have to wait for an actual archetype or other group of feats that build on Meld. As Deriven suggested.
They plan to make a Synthesis Archetype where you get the feat for free when you take the archetype. Then it builds upon that feat through archetype feats.
Do we have any idea when we're likely to see that?
You make some good points, Castilliano.
I never did Synthesist for the power. I did it to play the outsider or someone who was working at transitioning to an outsider, or other creature as the types became available.
Yes when I played the Synthesis Summoner in PF1 it was because the other Summoner types had clearly broken action economy and I thought this would be a way to get the concept while fitting into the party. I still overshadowed the party significantly, but mostly it was in terms on endurance I could just keep adventuring when everyone else wanted to rest.... so that was OK.
Also yes Castilliano good points on why you might choose to play a melded Synthesis Summoner in PF2. Its not technically a strong option but it does have a few upsides.
I still see two rule problems that revolve around there not being a clear definition of what is actually happening with the meld or the manifestation
The simplest assumption to make is you are taking the Summoner off the board and playing with the melded Eidolon. That seems to be the way most people are interpreting it. But the rules don't really say that.
The Manifest has the Conjuration and Teleportation traits which imply that you follow opposite principles. Teleportation is gating a creature in from another place, but Conjuration is mostly creating a facsimile (read the SOM page 21).
The text of Manifest talks about your eidolon's physical form dissolves: your eidolon unmanifests. Meld says our physical form can combine with that of your eidolon, granting benefits but limiting your capabilities. You Manifest your Eidolon, but instead of summoning it into an adjacent open space, you become it
So your are merging into it. Not just a simple teleport, or even a simple facsimile.
Where is the summoner in the meld?
Anyway its a bit of a rules mess. Sometimes it makes sense to use one interpretation and sometimes the other.
but Conjuration is mostly creating a facsimile (read the SOM page 21).
That's not quite right. Conjuration is the overarching school of magic that covers both those things. It doesn't point in any specific direction on its own.
but Conjuration is mostly creating a facsimile (read the SOM page 21).That's not quite right. Conjuration is the overarching school of magic that covers both those things. It doesn't point in any specific direction on its own.
But that still doesn't leave you any wiser. Sometimes manifesting seem like a telport effect, other times it seems more likely a creation of a facsimile.
Melding into Eidolon is totally unclear. You become it. Are you still there? Did you teleport away and the Eidolon appear? Did you transform into the Eidolon? Are you actually there? Does it matter if your Eidolon is much smaller that the Summoner?
Do spells and effect on you continue? Do your passive non action abilities still have any effect?