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Better plan would have been to remain silent. Let the internet rage machine tire itself out. Twitter will move on to the next nontroversy in a week.
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Better plan would have been to remain silent. Let the internet rage machine tire itself out. Twitter will move on to the next nontroversy in a week.
If I may guide your gaze over to the large upticks in cancelled subscriptions that are rolling in with every passing hour...
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If I may guide your gaze over to the large upticks in cancelled subscriptions that are rolling in with every passing hour...
Link to proof?
I'll continue to support Paizo myself. Free shrugs.
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If I may guide your gaze over to the large upticks in cancelled subscriptions that are rolling in with every passing hour...Link to proof?
I'll continue to support Paizo myself. Free shrugs.
Thanks to the strange system, we have to do things this way!
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Better plan would have been to remain silent. Let the internet rage machine tire itself out. Twitter will move on to the next nontroversy in a week.If I may guide your gaze over to the large upticks in cancelled subscriptions that are rolling in with every passing hour...
That’s not even counting those of us who typically buy via LGS and now are second-guessing if we will in the future.
Paizo stuck out to me because as a teenager over a decade and several years the fact their iconic paladin was a dark-skinned woman with cornrows - aka looked like me- made an impact. It was the only rpg book that had someone that looked like me I could find and it’s the reason why I’ve purposely tried to give them my money and support the company to this day. Even when playing other systems- I’ve purchased products and converted them because I liked the content and believed the company’s stances were about more than just $$.To think that some people in management would be against that today because they don’t want to be “the company known for diversity” is a real gut-punch and heartbreaking for me. I want that addressed. I want to know if that’s true. I want actual answers vs the empty statement currently released.
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Yo Jeff this response sucks. At least Jason and Erik had good, reasonable responses to things (mostly Erik since Jason's was just "can't talk about it") but you're out here running your mouth and not actually apologizing. How can this possibly be your response in this situation? You need to actually think about your actions, dude.
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"Innocent until proven guilty" is the standard in criminal cases. Civil cases have a "preponderance of the evidence" standard, which basically means that you lose your case if the allegation against you is shown as more likely than not to be true.
If someone is acquitted in a criminal case but loses a civil case for the same allegations, is he guilty or innocent?
Thanks to the strange system, we have to do things this way!
A quick skim of the first page shows 40-ish cancellations. Second page does have cancellations, but drilling into the individual posts indicates they aren't cancelling due to the "controversy" or don't leave a reason at all.
Out of how many active subscriptions exactly? Thousands? More?
40 subscriptions will no doubt raise an eyebrow but it's not going to sink Paizo. I mean hell I'm buying like $300 worth of Starfinder rulebooks/APs, both physical and PDFs in about a week.
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Better plan would have been to remain silent. Let the internet rage machine tire itself out. Twitter will move on to the next nontroversy in a week.
Sure, if you think Paizo has the attention of the greater whole of Twitter discourse. I'd bet my bookshelf nobody outside of Paizo fans and maybe some of the larger TTRPG community has even heard about it, much less cares. Most of the D&D community seems tied up in some Critical Role thing. So outside of here, a couple of hashtags, and a handful of discords, nobody cares.
It follows that every sub cancellation is lost money that was guaranteed direct sales. Every lost PFS GM represents lost sales in scenarios, maps, minis, books, and the good will built by engaged GMs. Every beloved employee or freelancer is talent that at best represents lost production value and passion. Every content creator who doesn't wanted to be associated with the brand after silence in the face of multiple accusations is a huge loss in free advertising.
Good will is hard to earn, harder to keep. Silence just confirms that everything damning thing was true to their strongest supporters.
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What is the the end goal of all of this?
Shut down Paizo?
Should i belive in what Jessica Price is saying ?
I am so exited to begin GM SoT(as a Brazilian i was so happy with the Mwangi Book).
But if what that women said is truth, in a moral princible , i can no longer play Pathfinder .
What if she is a liar? Just a vindict person.
I must admit that i am complety confused with this whole situation.
I am not a subscriber but i have bought 70% of the digital books of second edition and for a highschooll teacher in brazil i spent a lot of money in pdf.
Sorry for my bad english.
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Thanks to the strange system, we have to do things this way!A quick skim of the first page shows 40-ish cancellations. Second page does have cancellations, but drilling into the individual posts indicates they aren't cancelling due to the "controversy" or don't leave a reason at all.
Out of how many active subscriptions exactly? Thousands? More?
40 subscriptions will no doubt raise an eyebrow but it's not going to sink Paizo. I mean hell I'm buying like $300 worth of Starfinder rulebooks/APs, both physical and PDFs in about a week.
Depending on releases I was purchasing $100-$300 dollars a month. I decided to cancel, and might resub in the future if I feel the issues get meaningfully addressed.
Until then? Taking that $ and putting it toward employees Twitch channels, patreons, kofis, etc.
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While I understand why many are doing it... one reason I'm not for canceling subs is that it hurts workers down the line more than it does management. Personally, I'd like to see them commit to change and be transparent as to how and understanding as to why it was necessary. It's the same things I expect from extremists I deradicalize.
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Better plan would have been to remain silent. Let the internet rage machine tire itself out. Twitter will move on to the next nontroversy in a week.Sure, if you think Paizo has the attention of the greater whole of Twitter discourse. I'd bet my bookshelf nobody outside of Paizo fans and maybe some of the larger TTRPG community has even heard about it, much less cares. Most of the D&D community seems tied up in some Critical Role thing. So outside of here, a couple of hashtags, and a handful of discords, nobody cares.
From my personal circle, I will note that even people who do not play Pathfinder are hearing about this, and they brought it up to me. Granted, I'd heard about it before that, but it is certainly garnering more attention than you're saying.
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Thanks to the strange system, we have to do things this way!If I may guide your gaze over to the large upticks in cancelled subscriptions that are rolling in with every passing hour...Link to proof?
I'll continue to support Paizo myself. Free shrugs.
Neat, just resubscribed, because thoughts and prayers for the CS team doesn't put food on the table.
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Paizo stuck out to me because as a teenager over a decade and several years the fact their iconic paladin was a dark-skinned woman with cornrows - aka looked like me- made an impact. It was the only rpg book that had someone that looked like me I could find and it’s the reason why I’ve purposely tried to give them my money and support the company to this day. Even when playing other systems- I’ve purchased products and converted them because I liked the content and believed the company’s stances were about more than just $$.
To think that some people in management would be against that today because they don’t want to be “the company known for diversity” is a real gut-punch and heartbreaking for me. I want that addressed. I want to know if that’s true. I want actual answers vs the empty statement currently released.
This echoes my feelings. PF2e is incredibly trans-inclusive for a big-budget TTRPG, and I've always felt respected and cared for as a customer and community member (on Reddit/Discord; not a big poster here). It hurts like hell to think that the people who broke their backs to make me feel that way are not being treated with similar humanity by their own employers.
This isn't a "managerial" issue, but a personal one. We know the names of those in charge, and they need to take specific action to start treating the people who depend on them with basic dignity. Livable wages and the right to work from home would be a good start.
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Thanks to the strange system, we have to do things this way!A quick skim of the first page shows 40-ish cancellations. Second page does have cancellations, but drilling into the individual posts indicates they aren't cancelling due to the "controversy" or don't leave a reason at all.
Out of how many active subscriptions exactly? Thousands? More?
40 subscriptions will no doubt raise an eyebrow but it's not going to sink Paizo. I mean hell I'm buying like $300 worth of Starfinder rulebooks/APs, both physical and PDFs in about a week.
These are the visible ones. Most people will use email.
And yeah, as someone who is on the CS forum daily, this is extremely noticeable.
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Neat, just resubscribed, because thoughts and prayers for the CS team doesn't put food on the table.
I have never subbed, but after hearing about this I think I will.
Just setup a Starfinder Roleplaying Game subscription.
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While I understand why many are doing it... one reason I'm not for canceling subs is that it hurts workers down the line more than it does management. Personally, I'd like to see them commit to change and be transparent as to how and understanding as to why it was necessary. It's the same things I expect from extremists I deradicalize.
Speaking of, for those of you cancelling your subs, consider checking the author and artist credits of your favorite books and adventures, then hunting down their Patreons, Kofis, or other published works. You've got some extra cash now, and you can use that to make sure that the people who made the things you love can come out of this okay, regardless of what management does about it.
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Neat, just resubscribed, because thoughts and prayers for the CS team doesn't put food on the table.I have never subbed, but after hearing about this I think I will.
Just setup a Starfinder Roleplaying Game subscription.
Don't agree with what you are saying, repeatedly, but man you have my respect for putting your money where your mouth is.
That being said, you are actually taking money out of their pockets because didn't you say previously you would buy the hard covers AND pdf's separately? or was that someone else? Can't find that post now...
Anyways, still got my respect for jumping on that bandwagon
/shrug
I am in the wait and see category. I am not cancelling anything yet, but man I was hoping for a better statement than this.
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Neat, just resubscribed, because thoughts and prayers for the CS team doesn't put food on the table.I have never subbed, but after hearing about this I think I will.
Just setup a Starfinder Roleplaying Game subscription.
Yeah I was a starfinder guy for awhile, then sfs 3-16 came out and really turned me off the product (silliness), and frankly I had been playing it nonstop since a few months after launch. Then covid, then going back to work and limited hours at that (averaged 60 per week preCovid to 30) then something had to be cut. Was Starfinder. Playing a ton of PF2 and with this nonsense (and a paid off vehicle to boot) was time to show some support. Everyone's got skeletons, these aren't that bad to me.
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A quick skim of the first page shows 40-ish cancellations. Second page does have cancellations, but drilling into the individual posts indicates they aren't cancelling due to the "controversy" or don't leave a reason at all.
Out of how many active subscriptions exactly? Thousands? More?
40 subscriptions will no doubt raise an eyebrow but it's not going to sink Paizo. I mean hell I'm buying like $300 worth of Starfinder rulebooks/APs, both physical and PDFs in about a week.
Let's not get ahead of ourselves. I was curious about this earlier today so I tracked it. Reliably you can only look at yesterday and today (though arguably Monday could be counted, and if you're really interested in those numbers I have them as well)..
Between yesterday and today there have been 24 cancellations that were either tied to the current situation or where no reason was given. Of those cancellations only 7 can be explicitly tracked back to the situation at hand. That's almost half the "40" quoted.
Keep in mind, during that same time there were 13 that explicitly gave reasons for cancellation such as "shipping is too much", were old posts that were simply resurrected, were duplicates of the same request or were just regular old customer service questions about orders.
Edit:
Further note, compared to a week ago there were 7 cancellations and 12 random other CS requests. Is 7 greater than 24? Yes. But for the initial outrage that comes from a situation like this, I'd hardly call that bank-breaking.
Thanks to the strange system, we have to do things this way!A quick skim of the first page shows 40-ish cancellations. Second page does have cancellations, but drilling into the individual posts indicates they aren't cancelling due to the "controversy" or don't leave a reason at all.
Out of how many active subscriptions exactly? Thousands? More?
40 subscriptions will no doubt raise an eyebrow but it's not going to sink Paizo. I mean hell I'm buying like $300 worth of Starfinder rulebooks/APs, both physical and PDFs in about a week.
Ah found it! was going crazy there for a second.
Yup, definitely giving them less money with subscriptions!
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That being said, you are actually taking money out of their pockets because didn't you say previously you would buy the hard covers AND pdf's separately? or was that someone else?
Oh, that was me. I buy multiples of things to share with my group. Like two core rulebooks; one for me and a spare for the players to use and abuse. I'll buy two copies of an AP if I'm co-GMing with someone else.
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Let's not get ahead of ourselves. I was curious about this earlier today so I tracked it[...]
Wow, yeah, I was way off then. That's what I get for skimming.
We will be told "B-but people can be unsubbing via email!". Which is possible. It's also possible 5 people unsubbed via email. That is to say: Hitchens's razor. "What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence."
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Wow, it's weird being on this side of the Paizo Defense Force.
Contributor
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Gotta love the conflicting trolls in this thread.
One demands you do NOTHING to support a company if you have any problem with them regardless of circumstance or context.
The other seems to ignore or refuse to believe in the long history boycotting, voicing concern with monetary repercussions, and anything else mildly related to management-employee-customer relations and resolutions.
Can you lot just fight amongst yourselves for a while and just send the winner back? It'd be easier for all of us.
If a company loses that many subs in a single day, in response to an issue that a bunch of its customers are complaining about, that's the customers' statement. They have every right to make it. The company's reactions (or lack thereof) are the response. That's dialog between customers and a business. If customers demand better conditions for the employees and the company reacts by saying nothing and then firing a bunch of those employees, how does that make them look?
Anyway, back to this actual thread: yeah that response absolutely sucks. It addresses nothing. There's a lot of testimonial stuff floating around right now from a lot of sources, and the official paizo response boils down to "Did not!"
Seriously, the public doesn't have a lot to go on in an official capacity, but that tactless response seems better at supporting the accusations than defending against them.
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Let's not get ahead of ourselves. I was curious about this earlier today so I tracked it[...]Wow, yeah, I was way off then. That's what I get for skimming.
We will be told "B-but people can be unsubbing via email!". Which is possible. It's also possible 5 people unsubbed via email. That is to say: Hitchens's razor. "What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence."
ACT-ually.
Sara Marie has been telling people for months to use Email over the forums for support as it will get quicker responses.
So, it's not really surprising that someone (Read:Me) will say that email is also being used.
for people wanting to do it via email the address is customer.service@paizo.com !
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Gotta love the conflicting trolls in this thread.
One demands you do NOTHING to support a company if you have any problem with them regardless of circumstance or context.
The other seems to ignore or refuse to believe in the long history boycotting, voicing concern with monetary repercussions, and anything else mildly related to management-employee-customer relations and resolutions.
Can you lot just fight amongst yourselves for a while and just send the winner back? It'd be easier for all of us.
If a company loses that many subs in a single day, in response to an issue that a bunch of its customers are complaining about, that's the customers' statement. They have every right to make it. The company's reactions (or lack thereof) are the response. That's dialog between customers and a business. If customers demand better conditions for the employees and the company reacts by saying nothing and then firing a bunch of those employees, how does that make them look?
Anyway, back to this actual thread: yeah that response absolutely sucks. It addresses nothing. There's a lot of testimonial stuff floating around right now from a lot of sources, and the official paizo response boils down to "Did not!"
Seriously, the public doesn't have a lot to go on in an official capacity, but that tactless response seems better at supporting the accusations than defending against them.
It's basically a he said she said. There is no real response that can be made that will sate the bloodthirsty masses, other than apparently the resignation of multiple staff, even if they're innocent of what they've been accused of.
The response sucks but what the hell else were you expecting?
But its not "he said, she said". It's a lot of people saying things that largely overlap and all follow a similar trend to most tales of mismanagement. On the other end, a guy saying less than nothing. From within Paizo we've seen a better, more thought out response in the form Eric Mona's post on Reddit than the official non-response.
If they're going to sell themselves as inclusive company, they need to be able to prove it better than falling back behind "some of my best friends are X" as a shield if they expect to not get blowback when something comes out.
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I must ask again.
What is the end goal?
Put paizo out of business.
I don't know anyone that wants that. I would like these problems addressed openly and honestly. I would like people who are in positions of power who have worked to undermine and belittle those under them to be held accountable. I would like to see problems addressed and real change made.
Paizo has shown (at least publicly) that it is capable of making positive change.
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I must ask again.
What is the end goal?
Put paizo out of business.
I don't know anyone that wants that. I would like these problems addressed openly and honestly. I would like people who are in positions of power who have worked to undermine and belittle those under them to be held accountable. I would like to see problems addressed and real change made.
Paizo has shown (at least publicly) that it is capable of making positive change.
I think that's what most people want. Odds are we want to like Paizo, otherwise we wouldn't be here. It would be nice if they did the minimum to make that easy.
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I must ask again.
What is the end goal?
Put paizo out of business.
The end goal is to make sure Paizo is treating their employees with dignity and respect. Nobody wants the company to go out of business; we just care a lot about the people making the games we love, and don't like it when their managers are cruel or neglectful towards them.
The woman who was fired was very beloved by the community and her fellow employees. She was trying very hard to make Paizo a better place to work, and there is reason to believe that she was fired because of it. This makes a lot of us feel like upper management would rather silence the people who ask for better treatment than actually make any positive changes.
I saw that English is not your first language, so let me know if you do not understand something I wrote here, and I will do my best to clarify.
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And an employe being fired for reasons unknown to you leads to "the company has to be boicotted and management has to step down" how?
Absolutely, this was not in a vacuum exempt from everything. This is about Sara Marie and Diego, who we have known for years. This is a rather small community.
Pushing the narrative that it was a justified firing without any evidence whatsoever, that the company is defaultly in the right, is just as much if not more of a conspiracy theory than what's been levied at those rightfully angered at these sad state of events.