Hi everyone,
This is quite an old question that bugs me.
Recently, my players are getting into double digit levels and as such are using more and more tripping and demoralizing and grappling, etc... I can testify that it works quite well, but is also quite balanced.
On the other hand, I don't use Tripping, Grappling, Disarming and Intimidating much against my PCs unless a monster has a special ability to do it.
But... Should I do it? I can't wrap my head around that.
For example, the level 10 Paladin in my game has 25 Reflex DC. And for example a Bebilith has +23 in Athletics. So it can perma trip the Paladin, making an AoO per turn to compensate the lost action. It feels unfair, as the Bebilith has 95% chance to succeed. On the other hand, the Paladin has crappy Reflex saves so it seems quite legitimate for monsters to use that (a dwarf in full plate screams low reflexes) and also quite legitimate toward the other players (the Rogue has suffered so much from poisons but the Paladin never really suffered from his abysmal Reflex saves).
As such, I'm puzzled. The higher the level and the easier it is to control martials through Athletics/Intimidation checks. At very high level, it even becomes so easy that you can start Disarming and Restraining the PCs with pretty decent chances of success, even with mooks.
Roughly, it boils down to:
Not using it: The game is nice, combats are fast but melee martials seem just stronger than anything else accross the 20 levels (mostly because they are strong right from level 1 when ranged martials and casters need time to be efficient). Also, combat is very repetitive as swinging one's sword is a strong and valid tactic all across the board.
Using it: Melee martials may become more and more frustrated when getting to higher levels as monsters can even prevent them from acting entirely. On the other hand, versatile martials or players who play tactically may compensate part of the difficulty.
What's your point of view, as both players and GMs?
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Different monsters should feel different.
If you're running an AP or Adventure, I'd typically suggest following the tactics listed, since its often part of the assumed balance.
Outside of that, yup, I would use what the monster is good at, if it feels thematic. If you haven't been using it before, mix it in slowly, so players have a chance to learn how their party should deal with it. Ie even in a single fight, don't perma-trip a paladin. Maybe leave it every other/every third round if its a new concept for them to have to deal with. After a level or two, it should be fair game to try to permatrip. But still only in a small fraction of encounters. The 'pain' and frustrating fights need to be fairly distributed among the party.
I play the monsters as I see fit.
If the creature is smart as a human and have AoO and good athletics? Heck yeah I will trip the player. Same if the flatfooted will help their allies to hit and they have a basic tactics understanding.
If it's not smart enough and don't have knockdown I would not trip.
If you're going to incorporate more maneuvers in for intelligent/trained enemies, give your players a chance to retrain. Kip up becomes a feat tax on martials once knockdown and 3rd action trips start flying regularly. Disarm is rarer since I don't think it even shows up as a monster ability, but as long as you offer your players locked gauntlets or weapon cords, that's not much of an issue either. As for restrain, that's a spell tax on casters who should have freedom of movement anyway.
I'd say don't be afraid to force your players to learn how to play/build around these things. Or offer mighty bulwark as a class feat for all heavy armor classes instead of being sentinel dedication only.
I play the monsters as I see fit.
If the creature is smart as a human and have AoO and good athletics? Heck yeah I will trip the player. Same if the flatfooted will help their allies to hit and they have a basic tactics understanding.
If it's not smart enough and don't have knockdown I would not trip.
Ditto w/ Demoralize.
Many monsters have great Intimidate scores, and that's an investment for them as well. They should be using it, often to start their round.(This is also one reason not to clump enemies, so they don't necessarily all capitalize on it w/o a sound tactician coordinating.)
Each -1 to their enemy's AC is about a +1/6 boost to damage (for normal ranges of opponents) so not using Demoralize is like not flanking; both have obvious benefits. Opponents of normal intelligence should be trying both, especially if they've got the skills for it.
And I find nothing wrong with perma-trip because the monster's paying for it, both with an action and with MAP. And the Paladin should have Lay on Hands, so it's the least vulnerable. :) They'd also have enough rounds to participate because they can Stand & Strike every round (w/ a Stride or Raise Shield too).
Grappling I'd usually leave to those with Grab, of which their are plenty, and Disarm's a longshot, not necessarily worthwhile for anybody unless desperate I suppose. Disarm could be useful to terrify somebody; have a lot of minions who can't hit the Paladin shift to trying to take his weapon instead. :) And Trip & Ready Trip... :) :)
He's left a crack in his defenses, and while I wouldn't go out of my way to choose enemies that can exploit it, I would let those that can do do so.
Thanks for your answers, it helps me making up my mind.
Different monsters should feel different.
Clearly. And it's covered anyway by the fact that not all monsters have high Athletics, that bosses have better things to do with their actions than to trip characters and that many enemies are not intelligent or coordinated enough for such tactics.
I'm more annoyed by the fact that it can really mess up some melee characters at times. For example, a flying enemy can trip all the characters reaching it, as being prone while flying means falling and taking a bunch of unavoidable damage. That's a near melee martial immunity as getting back to the monster will certainly take a full round.
Grappling I'd usually leave to those with Grab, of which their are plenty, and Disarm's a longshot, not necessarily worthwhile for anybody unless desperate I suppose.
Far from a long shot if you look at high level monsters. Getting over 50% chance to critically disarm/grapple is doable when you get close to level 20. And restraining or disarming a character is not a small effect.
Grappling I'd usually leave to those with Grab, of which their are plenty, and Disarm's a longshot, not necessarily worthwhile for anybody unless desperate I suppose.Far from a long shot if you look at high level monsters. Getting over 50% chance to critically disarm/grapple is doable when you get close to level 20. And restraining or disarming a character is not a small effect.
Neither is getting a critical a longshot and those hurt. :)
That's what they're trading, often as part of a cool attack routine that has other effects too. It might be quite worthwhile to pin that healer down! Hopefully that delays actual damage-dealing enough the others can rescue them with focused fire. (Another reason I feel support PCs need to have a way to deal damage, even if just in an emergency like their other support PC needing such help.)Or are you saying that 50% is vs. at-level opponents/PCs? That could be a problem if so. And one would have to be selective & introduce that slowly.
Is that a fatal flaw in the Dex-dumping, heavy armor builds?
Or are you saying that 50% is vs. at-level opponents/PCs?
Yep.
If you look at creature building rules, you see that a level 20 creature can have +38 and even up to +41 in a skill.The 10-Dexterity Paladin has 36-37 (depending on armor runes) as Reflex DC at level 20. And a character with Expert save and 18 in his stat would have 40-41. And that's without counting any kind of buff/debuff that are quite common at these levels or just the fact that you can face a higher level enemy.
So, you can get over 50% chance to disarm/restrain, and that's pretty massive. Or you can just trip with your 2nd attack and succeed on a 2.
a lvl 13 champion against an enemy of his level
I've quickly checked my monsters and I got similar results. Around level 10, only a small subset of monsters can use this tactic with honorable success. It's pretty balanced.
Still, the Paladin will have hard time getting to the Gelugon as it's so easy to trip them every round.lvl 20 creatures are more like bosses
Not to a level 20 paladin. The problem with skills start to appear around level 10 but is not much more than a small nuisance. At high level, it becomes crazy effective. Succeeding at a skill check on a 2 makes things pretty imbalanced.
Or are you saying that 50% is vs. at-level opponents/PCs?Yep.
If you look at creature building rules, you see that a level 20 creature can have +38 and even up to +41 in a skill.
The 10-Dexterity Paladin has 36-37 (depending on armor runes) as Reflex DC at level 20. And a character with Expert save and 18 in his stat would have 40-41. And that's without counting any kind of buff/debuff that are quite common at these levels or just the fact that you can face a higher level enemy.
So, you can get over 50% chance to disarm/restrain, and that's pretty massive. Or you can just trip with your 2nd attack and succeed on a 2.
Remember any character with flight can use the Arrest a Fall reaction. They may lose a bit of altitude but if they are trained in Acrobatics they probably won't hit the ground.
For people on the ground, sometimes a monster is going to bowl you over and force you to fight from your back. But if the monster is continuously doing that, it isn't likely to be targeting your friends and may get focus fired. While mechanically eating the -2 penalty is rough, it is the sort of dynamic fight that keeps things interesting. It even creates RP opportunities because the PC may be terrified.
Running Extinction Curse, mobs with high athletics and aren't stupid or animal trip fairly regularly. The party's main front-liner, consequently, loves his investment in Dex, Acrobat Archetype, Kip Up, and Nimble Crawl (not flat-footed while prone).
That's why I said "they are more like bosses".
Actually, +38 is what a Legendary Athlete has at level 20, so they are not much above PCs. It's just that skills grow faster than saves, being based on your main attribute and getting up to Legendary. At high level, the difference is high.
Remember any character with flight can use the Arrest a Fall reaction.
True. And at that level the DC 15 should be trivial. But it only removes damage, you still end up on the floor (and as you have been tripped, you're supposed to be prone in the end). So it's still really annoying, especially if the enemy adds extreme Reach and AoO to the mix.
That's why I said "they are more like bosses".Actually, +38 is what a Legendary Athlete has at level 20, so they are not much above PCs. It's just that skills grow faster than saves, being based on your main attribute and getting up to Legendary. At high level, the difference is high.
Remember any character with flight can use the Arrest a Fall reaction.True. And at that level the DC 15 should be trivial. But it only removes damage, you still end up on the floor (and as you have been tripped, you're supposed to be prone in the end). So it's still really annoying, especially if the enemy adds extreme Reach and AoO to the mix.
This is a bit ambiguous in the rules, but I'd say if the character is making a controlled landing they aren't likely to end up prone, though circumstances could vary.
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That's why I said "they are more like bosses".Actually, +38 is what a Legendary Athlete has at level 20, so they are not much above PCs. It's just that skills grow faster than saves, being based on your main attribute and getting up to Legendary. At high level, the difference is high.
Remember any character with flight can use the Arrest a Fall reaction.True. And at that level the DC 15 should be trivial. But it only removes damage, you still end up on the floor (and as you have been tripped, you're supposed to be prone in the end). So it's still really annoying, especially if the enemy adds extreme Reach and AoO to the mix.
It was brought to my attention that sovereign glue is also a good way to avoid disarms with its athletics dc50 requirement to break.
As for falling, consider air walk instead. There's an argument to be made that since you aren't flying you won't plummet on a trip and you might be able to use athletics jump feats to propel yourself around.