Question: why is there no +number strength effects?

[RoyAlan]

Question: why is there no +number strength effects?
Barbarians don't have it, transmuter wizards don't have it,

Where did all the ability score buffs go?
and perhaps most importantly... Why?

[Squiggit]

Ability enhancers are intentionally limited to try to keep the game's math timer.

And ability score manipulators are basically gone (more or less) because Paizo thought they were annoying for bookkeeping purposes in 1e.

[Tender Tendrils]

Temporary ability score boosts are very annoying to keep track of. There isn't anywhere on most character sheets to write down a bonus, and it then requires you to remember to add it to all of the calculations that are based on that ability score.

For example, if you have a spell that adds +2 to dex, you have to then remember to add a +1 to your AC, acrobatics, ranged attack rolls, reflex saves and potentially class DC, and probably a few things I can't remember off the top of my head.

It is also very difficult to balance something that modifies so many numbers on a character sheet. The system is better off with effects that are narrower and don't affect things that are the basis for other calculations.

Basically, if it temporarily changes a number on your character sheet, it shouldn't change a number that then change other numbers on the sheet.

Edit: The only way I can see it working in regards to player memory is if the buff was a condition, that instead of actually increasing your strength score, increases the specific things that strength contributes to.

As an example;

Strength Boost 1
-You gain a +1 bonus to damage with melee weapons
-You gain a +1 bonus to attack rolls with melee weapons (except when using the finesse trait)
-You gain a +1 bonus to Athletics checks
-Your bulk capacity increases by 5
-Whatever else I forgot

The player can then just refer to the condition like any other (potentially on a card). It also lets you number it as just 1/2/3 instead of players having to remember on the fly that the +2 to strength is a +1 to rolls. But it wouldn't cover class and feat related stuff that refers to the boost, and it would probably be unbalanced and break a lot of things.

[Unicore]

I think it is also in part tied to the decision to keep attributes on the 3-18+ scale, and for some boosts to strength to be more valuable to some characters than others.

Like others have said, it just creates a lot more book keeping and options like barbarian's rage can actually be tuned much tighter when the bonuses for it are incredibly specific (focused on a damage boost and temporary HP) rather than when those bonuses interact with 5 different things.

[NECR0G1ANT]

Tender Tendrils wrote:

Temporary ability score boosts are very annoying to keep track of. There isn't anywhere on most character sheets to write down a bonus, and it then requires you to remember to add it to all of the calculations that are based on that ability score.

For example, if you have a spell that adds +2 to dex, you have to then remember to add a +1 to your AC, acrobatics, ranged attack rolls, reflex saves and potentially class DC, and probably a few things I can't remember off the top of my head.

To play Asmodean Advocate, doesn't the clumsy condition already do that?

Quote:

Your movements become clumsy and inexact. Clumsy always includes a value. You take a status penalty equal to the condition value to Dexterity-based checks and DCs, including AC, Reflex saves, ranged attack rolls, and skill checks using Acrobatics, Stealth, and Thievery.

So why couldn't we have the opposite, a status bonus to all those things?

[thenobledrake]

I'd say the reason why + to ability score style buffs are gone is because of how PF2 is designed with the intention to be removing the choice point where some people will choose the more mechanically powerful option and other people won't and the game balance will falter as a result - just like how saving throw bonuses are no longer found in feats that people might choose to skip and are instead baked into class progression.

Plus the way important buffs like that feel for some players where they are basically mandatory but you have to give up choosing something else to get them, and PF2 tries to avoid that so that either a choice really is a choice (because there's no best option) or the thing you absolutely need to have is given a guarantee.

[Ganigumo]

NECR0G1ANT wrote:

Tender Tendrils wrote:

Temporary ability score boosts are very annoying to keep track of. There isn't anywhere on most character sheets to write down a bonus, and it then requires you to remember to add it to all of the calculations that are based on that ability score.

For example, if you have a spell that adds +2 to dex, you have to then remember to add a +1 to your AC, acrobatics, ranged attack rolls, reflex saves and potentially class DC, and probably a few things I can't remember off the top of my head.

To play Asmodean Advocate, doesn't the clumsy condition already do that?

Quote:

Your movements become clumsy and inexact. Clumsy always includes a value. You take a status penalty equal to the condition value to Dexterity-based checks and DCs, including AC, Reflex saves, ranged attack rolls, and skill checks using Acrobatics, Stealth, and Thievery.

So why couldn't we have the opposite, a status bonus to all those things?

I mean, quicksilver mutagen kind of gives an item bonus to dex I guess.

Quote:

Your features become thin and angular. You become swifter and nimbler, but your body also becomes fragile.

Benefit You gain an item bonus to Acrobatics checks, Stealth checks, Thievery checks, Reflex saves, and Dexterity-based attack rolls, and you gain the listed status bonus to your Speed.

Drawback You take damage equal to twice your level; you can't recover Hit Points lost in this way by any means while the mutagen lasts. You take a –2 penalty to Fortitude saves

[Dargath]

Squiggit wrote:

Ability enhancers are intentionally limited to try to keep the game's math timer.

And ability score manipulators are basically gone (more or less) because Paizo thought they were annoying for bookkeeping purposes in 1e.

They were. So glad they’re gone.

[breithauptclan]

thenobledrake wrote:

I'd say the reason why + to ability score style buffs are gone is because of how PF2 is designed with the intention to be removing the choice point where some people will choose the more mechanically powerful option and other people won't and the game balance will falter as a result - just like how saving throw bonuses are no longer found in feats that people might choose to skip and are instead baked into class progression.

Plus the way important buffs like that feel for some players where they are basically mandatory but you have to give up choosing something else to get them, and PF2 tries to avoid that so that either a choice really is a choice (because there's no best option) or the thing you absolutely need to have is given a guarantee.

Yeah. This.

Being someone who hated picking math enhancing feats instead of cool ability feats, I am glad for the change.

[Captain Morgan]

NECR0G1ANT wrote:

Tender Tendrils wrote:

Temporary ability score boosts are very annoying to keep track of. There isn't anywhere on most character sheets to write down a bonus, and it then requires you to remember to add it to all of the calculations that are based on that ability score.

For example, if you have a spell that adds +2 to dex, you have to then remember to add a +1 to your AC, acrobatics, ranged attack rolls, reflex saves and potentially class DC, and probably a few things I can't remember off the top of my head.

To play Asmodean Advocate, doesn't the clumsy condition already do that?

Quote:

Your movements become clumsy and inexact. Clumsy always includes a value. You take a status penalty equal to the condition value to Dexterity-based checks and DCs, including AC, Reflex saves, ranged attack rolls, and skill checks using Acrobatics, Stealth, and Thievery.

So why couldn't we have the opposite, a status bonus to all those things?

I imagine because it is all around easier to have a status bonus that just boosts all attack rolls. Almost all athletics check you'd use in combat are already attacks, unless that got changed in the errata as far as Inspire Courage is concerned. As is, you don't really need to worry about party composition when using such buffs. A skald didn't do much good in a dex based party.

I guess Song of Strength kind of does this, but it strikes as one of the worst compositions.

Mutagens break this pattern, as mentioned, but mutagens and alchemists in general are more fiddly than they need to be.

[The Raven Black]

Athletism checks are skill checks, they are not attack rolls.

[Sagiam]

The Raven Black wrote:

Athletism checks are skill checks, they are not attack rolls.

Not all of them but Shove, Trip, Disarm, Grapple, and Force Open are.

Edit: Also the Escape(?) action is as well.

[HenshinFanatic]

The Raven Black wrote:

Athletism checks are skill checks, they are not attack rolls.

Though Shove, Trip, and Grapple are certainly attacks made through Athletics what with that whole "Attack" trait those actions have...

[The Raven Black]

HenshinFanatic wrote:

The Raven Black wrote:

Athletism checks are skill checks, they are not attack rolls.

Though Shove, Trip, and Grapple are certainly attacks made through Athletics what with that whole "Attack" trait those actions have...

They are actions that use Athletics checks but they are not attack rolls (which means Inspire Courage does not boost them). They do have the Attack trait which means they contribute to and are affected by the MAP.

Skill checks are never attack rolls.

[Sagiam]

The Raven Black wrote:

HenshinFanatic wrote:

The Raven Black wrote:

Athletism checks are skill checks, they are not attack rolls.

Though Shove, Trip, and Grapple are certainly attacks made through Athletics what with that whole "Attack" trait those actions have...

They are actions that use Athletics checks but they are not attack rolls (which means Inspire Courage does not boost them). They do have the Attack trait which means they contribute to and are affected by the MAP.

Skill checks are never attack rolls.

I'm honestly curious as to why you'd think that.

Edit: Nevermind, found the difference on AoN

[Arachnofiend]

It's a rule that was changed after first publication to break finesse trip weapons.

[Krugus]

Since this is a TTRPG, you can always add them back in for your table. Its really not all that hard to do. I added physical stat boosting spell back to my table. The druid used it 0 times so far :) He said he has better use for his slots ATM ;)

[Guntermench]

Errata wrote:

Page 446: Attack Rolls. There was some confusion as to whether skill checks with the attack trait (such as Grapple or Trip) are also attack rolls at the same time. They are not. To make this clear, add this sentence to the beginning of the definition of attack roll "When you use a Strike action or make a spell attack, you attempt a check called an attack roll."

To clarify the different rules elements involved:

An attack is any check that has the attack trait. It applies and increases the multiple attack penalty.

An attack roll is one of the core types of checks in the game (along with saving throws, skill checks, and Perception checks). They are used for Strikes and spell attacks, and traditionally target Armor Class.

Some skill actions have the attack trait, specifically Athletics actions such as Grapple and Trip. You still make a skill check with these skills, not an attack roll.

The multiple attack penalty applies on those skill actions as well. As it says later on in the definition of attack roll "Striking multiple times in a turn has diminishing returns. The multiple attack penalty (detailed on page 446) applies to each attack after the first, whether those attacks are Strikes, special attacks like the Grapple action of the Athletics skill, or spell attack rolls." There is inaccurate language in the Multiple Attack Penalty section implying it applies only to attack rolls that will be receiving errata.

Relevant section.

[The Raven Black]

Arachnofiend wrote:

It's a rule that was changed after first publication to break finesse trip weapons.

A clarification. Not a change.

[Ventnor]

I mean, there are some items that boost ability scores directly, called Apex Items. They’re not available until level 17 or so, though.

[Captain Morgan]

The Raven Black wrote:

Arachnofiend wrote:

It's a rule that was changed after first publication to break finesse trip weapons.

A clarification. Not a change.

Well, it did change from the playtest. We had at least one designer who said you could use dex to trip back then. I'd assume that was not a universal opinion though. That designer has since left the company too.

I'm still not sure they kept the trip trait on things like Wolf Stance if they aren't using dex anymore.

[Kyrone]

Captain Morgan wrote:

The Raven Black wrote:

Arachnofiend wrote:

It's a rule that was changed after first publication to break finesse trip weapons.

A clarification. Not a change.

Well, it did change from the playtest. We had at least one designer who said you could use dex to trip back then. I'd assume that was not a universal opinion though. That designer has since left the company too.

I'm still not sure they kept the trip trait on things like Wolf Stance if they aren't using dex anymore.

Let you use the item bonus from handwraps so you don't need to buy lifting belts and stuff like that.

[Captain Morgan]

Kyrone wrote:

Captain Morgan wrote:

The Raven Black wrote:

Arachnofiend wrote:

It's a rule that was changed after first publication to break finesse trip weapons.

A clarification. Not a change.

Well, it did change from the playtest. We had at least one designer who said you could use dex to trip back then. I'd assume that was not a universal opinion though. That designer has since left the company too.

I'm still not sure they kept the trip trait on things like Wolf Stance if they aren't using dex anymore.

Let you use the item bonus from handwraps so you don't need to buy lifting belts and stuff like that.

Yeah, that's all I can think of, but generally if you're dedicated enough to athletics to care about traits like trip and grapple, your athletics proficiency will outstrip your weapon proficiency. Especially on a monk. And difference in proficiency will usually be at least twice the item bonus to your weapon.

Also, why would you not want the lifting belt? Athletics is an extremely versatile skill. I can't imagine why you wouldn't want to be able to everything other than trip with it.

Like, there are a small fraction of builds that may appreciate it, and it might come in handy at low levels before you can afford the skill items... But I really question if those are worth building the feature in. Especially when it makes you second guess the bonus your player is rolling with.

[Guntermench]

Not particularly relevant to Wolf Fang, but I believe the trait also lets you do the thing with your hands full.

I'm not sure what you mean about the proficiency for athletics being higher than unarmed. That's irrelevant, you'd use the item bonus on the athletics check.

[Captain Morgan]

Guntermench wrote:

Not particularly relevant to Wolf Fang, but I believe the trait also lets you do the thing with your hands full.

I'm not sure what you mean about the proficiency for athletics being higher than unarmed. That's irrelevant, you'd use the item bonus on the athletics check.

Oh, you're right. I don't know why I thought it was using the unarmed bonus. Still, I maintain you'd want the item bonus to other athletics checks anyway.

[Tender Tendrils]

NECR0G1ANT wrote:

Tender Tendrils wrote:

Temporary ability score boosts are very annoying to keep track of. There isn't anywhere on most character sheets to write down a bonus, and it then requires you to remember to add it to all of the calculations that are based on that ability score.

For example, if you have a spell that adds +2 to dex, you have to then remember to add a +1 to your AC, acrobatics, ranged attack rolls, reflex saves and potentially class DC, and probably a few things I can't remember off the top of my head.

To play Asmodean Advocate, doesn't the clumsy condition already do that?

Quote:

Your movements become clumsy and inexact. Clumsy always includes a value. You take a status penalty equal to the condition value to Dexterity-based checks and DCs, including AC, Reflex saves, ranged attack rolls, and skill checks using Acrobatics, Stealth, and Thievery.

So why couldn't we have the opposite, a status bonus to all those things?

You misunderstand, I'm saying that a condition that changes the end numbers is fine for player memory, just not a buff that changes the underlying number. A condition that changes the numbers influenced by Dex I can look at one page or a card and see what it does. A flat buff to Dex I have to look all over the place and try and remember everything that Dex does.

Also, a debuff is extremely different to a buff for balance purposes.

[RoyAlan]

thank you to all for a very deep and detailed discussion and reminders.

[Staffan Johansson]

Ventnor wrote:

I mean, there are some items that boost ability scores directly, called Apex Items. They’re not available until level 17 or so, though.

From an ease-of-use perspective, there's a big difference between modifications you make "off-screen" (like leveling up or adding magic items) and those you make at "run-time" (like casting a spell or drinking a potion).

[Staffan Johansson]

Captain Morgan wrote:

Mutagens break this pattern, as mentioned, but mutagens and alchemists in general are more fiddly than they need to be.

The CRB mutagens are not exactly well designed IMO. They seem like someone started by copying the "base" mutagen and assorted varieties over from PF1, and then someone else told them "Didn't you hear? We're not doing ability score changes on the fly anymore." and then they just rewrote them to get around that but still get the same effect.

If I were re-doing them, I would probably lean on the battleform rules instead of having them give item bonuses, at least for the combat-oriented ones. I'd also remove some of them, to get maybe something like this:

Feral: Improved senses, faster, possibly natural weaponry.
Brutal: Big, strong, tough, hit hard.

I'm not really sure I'd make ones for mental stats, though I could see one that makes you more charming and suave. If the first two are the Wolverine and Hulk mutagens, the social one would be the Stefan Urquelle mutagen. I don't think I'd include a smart one, because alchemists are supposed to be smart in the first place – the point is that you use your smarts to compensate for your normal shortcomings, not that you use them to cycle yourself to greater heights of brilliance.

[HenshinFanatic]

The Raven Black wrote:

HenshinFanatic wrote:

The Raven Black wrote:

Athletism checks are skill checks, they are not attack rolls.

Though Shove, Trip, and Grapple are certainly attacks made through Athletics what with that whole "Attack" trait those actions have...

They are actions that use Athletics checks but they are not attack rolls (which means Inspire Courage does not boost them). They do have the Attack trait which means they contribute to and are affected by the MAP.

Skill checks are never attack rolls.

Late reply, but when did I claim they were attack rolls? I said they're attacks because they literally have the "Attack" trait. That is indisputable. You are using a skill check to make an attack that doesn't necessarily deal damage, at no point in the process of using the Grapple, Shove, and Trip actions are you making an Attack Roll. You are performing a skill check to make an attack.

[The Raven Black]

HenshinFanatic wrote:

The Raven Black wrote:

HenshinFanatic wrote:

The Raven Black wrote:

Athletism checks are skill checks, they are not attack rolls.

Though Shove, Trip, and Grapple are certainly attacks made through Athletics what with that whole "Attack" trait those actions have...

They are actions that use Athletics checks but they are not attack rolls (which means Inspire Courage does not boost them). They do have the Attack trait which means they contribute to and are affected by the MAP.

Skill checks are never attack rolls.

Late reply, but when did I claim they were attack rolls? I said they're attacks because they literally have the "Attack" trait. That is indisputable. You are using a skill check to make an attack that doesn't necessarily deal damage, at no point in the process of using the Grapple, Shove, and Trip actions are you making an Attack Roll. You are performing a skill check to make an attack.

Sorry. I was not contesting your point. Just adding some detail because the difference between attacks (with the Attack trait) and attack rolls is not always that obvious to casual readers.