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Hey, long time no see!
I'm trying to get a rogue build that uses frostbite as it's main go to for damage. Naturally, Major Magic comes to mind, but it's either 2 castings a day (not enough) or 1 for every 2 levels (also not enough). I'm really hoping to get 4+ castings a day at level 3.
Dipping and then using pearls of power would be alright, but I really want the caster level to scale. I really want to stick with rogue or a high sneak attack dice class (slayer could be acceptable).
Any thoughts on how to accomplish this?
Bonus points if it is an SLA, the DM is letting people take monster feats if applicable, and reach SLA looks really tempting.
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Gnomes can get chill touch as a racial SLA if that helps; it’s not frostbite but it’s used similarly. They can also use wands of recharge innate magic to get more uses of their racial SLAs.
High sneak attack dice can come about as an arcane trickster or a vivisectionist alchemist. The arcane trickster can get frostbite itself, the vivisectionist is limited to stuff like elemental touch.
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umm. the major magic is limited to wizard\sorcerer spells. frostbite is not on the list.
if your looking for a 1d6 attack (maybe not touch). you can go with racial heritage (frost giant\storm giant)
then get born of frost for 1d6 cold damage
or storm soul and then storm warrior for electricity immunity and 1d6 electricity damage (not sure you can get it as touch without adding it to touch weapons)
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Wow, great catch. I guess I always assumed wizards had frostbite because the magus class did.
Gnome with chill touch may be the way to go, though I was really hoping to go the generally non-lethal route to match with another player.
Arcane Trickster still works with witch for frostbite, but that leans really heavily towards spellcaster rather than melee combat dancer. Hrmmm...
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Isn't the Elf FCB extra uses of Minor/Major Magic Talent(s)?
Rogue: Add +1 to the number of times per day the rogue can cast a cantrip or 1st-level spell gained from the minor magic or major magic talent. The number of times this bonus is selected for the major magic talent cannot exceed the number of times it is selected for the minor magic talent. The rogue must possess the associated rogue talent to select these options.
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Note that using a touch attack was ruled to take a standard action, so you can't get iterative attacks with a spell like Frostbite.
At least, that's what I found when I dived into this spell a couple of months back: Can't find the relevant discussion now, of course...
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Wow, looks like it's an FAQ from 2017:
"Touch Spells: In the Magic and Combat chapters, it says that I can touch a single ally as a standard action or up to six allies as a full-round action and that I can combine delivering a touch spell with a natural attack or unarmed strike. But what if I just want to deliver the touch spell to an enemy? It just says I can do it “round after round.”
Making a touch attack against an enemy by touching it, beyond the free action to do so as part of casting the spell, is a standard action. It can’t be used with a full attack."
I stopped being active here before then. It kinda leaves open multiple charges a round via natural attacks, or spell striking Magi.
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Arcane trickster is compatible with a magus tho' not great with it, if lots of frostbite and sneak attack is what you most want out of the world.
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What is it you actually want? Sneak Attack with a touch attack? Multiple touch attack sneak attacks in a round? Rolling many d6? Rolling many d6 with touch spells? Rolling many d6 with multiple touch attacks in a round? A backstab-ish character with high damage? A backstab-ish character with magical abilities and high damage? A high-skill-character with high damage? A high-skill-character with magical abilities and high damage?
Eldritch Scoundrel is a Rogue archetype with casting (6/9 from the Wiz/Sorc list), and with the help of the Accomplished Sneak Attacker feat is a single-class entry into Arcaner Trickster. Such a build actually has the same number of SA as a regular Rogue dice until 15th level.
This would a build around e.g. Shocking Grasp. Of course, uch a build only ever has one attack per round, which just doesn't make for a competitive build after a few levels, even with Sneak Attack and an easy time hitting the target.
There aren't many ways to make multiple touch attacks per round. Firearms do that, and Magus has an Arcana to do that. An unMonk VMC Magus can keep it up at 10th+ level, and could even get extra d6s with Jabbing Master (although that requires 13t level).
Wow, looks like it's an FAQ from 2017: (...)
I stopped being active here before then. It kinda leaves open multiple charges a round via natural attacks, or spell striking Magi.
To be fair, the rules always implied it to be that way - the rules on holding a charge say "You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge." It makes no sense that touching an enemy would be a free action when touching a friend takes a standard action, and the word 'normal' in "normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon)" is clearly about it not being a touch attack. RAW, the FAQ actually only enabled something previously impossible, namely making touch attacks to enemies in subsequent rounds.
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I'm a bit of a gimmicks player. I love taking obscure rules and trying to optimize it a bit. So in this case, I was wanting to take the multiple touch attack spells and apply sneak attack to them multiple times in a single round. Of course, there are other touch attack sources (a few rods), but I was wanting to work with these spells specifically.
To be fair, the rules always implied it to be that way - the rules on holding a charge say "You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge." It makes no sense that touching an enemy would be a free action when touching a friend takes a standard action, and the word 'normal' in "normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon)" is clearly about it not being a touch attack. RAW, the FAQ actually only enabled something previously impossible, namely making touch attacks to enemies in subsequent rounds.
Thats certainly one argument, I interpreted the rules differently. Why is getting a full attack with punches, aiming for unprotected areas, easier than touching them without aiming for unprotected areas? I wasn't hoping for "free actions", I was hoping for the same treatment as attacks/full attacks (hence the attack roll), though I guess other "attacks" also can only be done as standards (grapples, overruns, repositions, etc...).
I'm sure theres a thread somewhere going through the arguments, this thread wasn't meant to get into the rules.
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Chill Touch is on the sorc/wiz list, so you could pick it up via major magic. This is an alternative to the more sophisticated gnome + wand approach from avr, which has its pros (available from level 1, no talents needed, potentially many daily uses, independent of class levels etc.) and cons (limited to gnome unless Racial Heritage, standard action to "reload", gold cost, difficult access to a wand with a spell from ARG etc.). You could also take both, to make the trick more reliable - which puts you further into the one-trick-pony corner, at the same time.
The elf FCB (mentioned by VoodistMonk) is a strong one. Half-elves also have access, as well as any race qualifying for Racial Heritage (elf) - if they can spare the precious feat. Technically there is also the Talented Magician feat in ACG, for +1 daily use of both minor and major magic. But that's barely stronger than the FCB (despite being a feat) and, less obviously, you need to wait until level 5 to pick it up the first time. Well, it doesn't force you to be an elf (or similar), and you can take it in addition to the FCB, at least.
I dived into the idea of a Chill Touch rogue myself, and it looked like touchy full attacks are not an option for them. Can't remember the arguments in favor of them working, but remember, they would have to convince your GM. Normal unarmed attacks with Chill Touch as rider effect seem better on the long run, especially with monk. The class can use the same arm for all attacks (if you want), Improved Unarmed Strike and increased unarmed damage don't hurt either. Unchained monk would even boost your BAB slightly, class monk comes with an additional +2 on Will saves though.
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Phantom Thief Rogues can choose major magic multiple times. Unfortunately this can't get you 4 frosbites at level 3 but, assuming the elf FCB, it can get you 6 Frosbites at level 4 and if you take talented magician for all your feats after level 3, you can get 13 Frosbites at level 6 and 27 Frostbites at level 9.
For higher levels you can get 69 at level 15 and 120 at level 20.