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The enemy consists of intelligent human bandits. The party's fighter charges forward with a +2 greater striking flaming longsword, and during the battle the bandits succeed at knocking out the fighter.
When you gain the Unconscious condition in this game, you drop everything you're holding.
Shouldn't a bandit pick up the weapon?
Tactically this seems like the right thing to do. But I see a problem with how this interacts with another rule:
When you fall unconscious, your initiative changes to just before the effect that knocked you out. This more often than not results in a delay before you can act again.
This rule allows the party to aid you in recovering, but it also delays when you can pick up your dropped weapons. So it feels like having an enemy pick up your weapon was something the designers didn't account for. And it feels especially bad if you couldn't rescue your weapon simply because your initiative was delayed.
What do others think about this?
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I would have them pick up the weapon. You do what you think the enemy would do to gain an advantage and win.
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Tactically it's reasonable and make sense, but PF2 martials are functionally useless at that level without their weapons... so something to keep in mind I guess.
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This question drives at the heart of what's fair and what's fun. It's fun to win certainly, but less so when you know your GM is pulling punches. Surviving and winning against a challenging fight is rewarding.
There's a balance GMs need to maintain. Intelligent tactics won't be appropriate in every fight. Having your super weapon stolen or getting hit repeatedly while Dying isn't a good time, but having those things possible will make your challenges feel more real.
So, sure, have your bandits play dirty this time without feeling guilty. Try to do it in a way that's not going to cause permanent harm (loss of the sword) or a TPK to give your players a taste of the kind of threat these bandits are. If your players realize they're playing for keeps, they can adjust their tactics to prepare for the worst and hopefully hedge their bets in the encounters to come.
The GM is trusted to create a world in which it's possible to win. Fighting an ancient red dragon is cool. Fighting 20 of them at once? Probably less so. Use the same litmus test for dirty tactics, and above all else find a balance that your players enjoy.
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I would have them pick up the weapon. You do what you think the enemy would do to gain an advantage and win.I second this.
Enemies, monsters and any living creature would do anything in their power to survive, and the example you described is taking advantage of a normal situation.
Alternatives might have been:
- Kick away the sword, out of the unconscious ( because either allies and enemies knows the target isn't dead yet ), to put it outside the unconscious character's reach.
- Change weapon ( if the weapon the character is using is a flaming silver sword and the bandit is using a normal sword, changing the weapon might do the trick ).
- Terminate the target ( since he's still alive, dealing additional damage with one action might result even better than picking up his weapon or kicking it away ).
- Destroy the weapon ( directly attacking an unattended object ).
Anything the bandits ( intelligent creatures which steal, lie, fight in groups, etc... ) might do to survive or accomplish their task is definitely ok ( players will also learn that not caring about hit points might bring to unhappy situations ).
K
The best thing to survive PCs is usually to run away as fast as you can. Strangely monsters and NPCs seem to have an even harder time than the most stubborn PC understanding that sometimes fleeing is the real optimal choice.
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I would have them pick up the weapon. You do what you think the enemy would do to gain an advantage and win.
Interestingly, I know of no tactics that say When your opponent is down, waste time taking their weapon. I know of When your opponent is down, attack the next one until all opponents are down or fleeing. Then you can take the unattended weapons.
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I would have them pick up the weapon. You do what you think the enemy would do to gain an advantage and win.Interestingly, I know of no tactics that say When your opponent is down, waste time taking their weapon. I know of When your opponent is down, attack the next one until all opponents are down or fleeing. Then you can take the unattended weapons.
So you've never seen someone pick up an enemy weapon after the enemy has fallen? Like picking up their gun or trying to take their magic sword? If this were just some weapon of no consequence, then I would agree. If you're wielding some powerful looking flaming sword and you can grab it quickly and use it against your enemy, why wouldn't you?
Now if you're not proficient with it, then I can see not bothering or just kicking it away.
Sometimes if a player drops near an enemy, I have them take a ready action to strike them while unconscious as leverage against the party.
It depends on what the enemy is capable of and what they're there for. In the context given, some bandit who can wield that type of weapon picking up the powerful looking flaming sword to use against incoming enemies seems like a smart tactic.
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The OP's idea is terrible, and I know it from personal experience. We were fighting about eight enemies, our fighter went down, and before our sorcerer could heal them, the enemy stole the weapon and moved behind enemy lines. It acomplished nothing except delaying combat by 30 minutes (real time).
Likewise, you should be careful about using enemies that spam darkness and invisibility, because those do nothing but lengthen combat.
I feel that I should say under no circumstance should you attack an unconscious PC. You will kill them 100% of the time. As with stealing their weapons, you don't have the excuse of "It's realistic!", because it's not.
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Would the opponent necessarily know that the PC isn't dead when they hit the dying condition? I play the opponents to assume that a dying PC is no longer an immediate threat, so they turn their attention to those still in the fight. Now there will be some rare exceptions, like foes that feed on the dead right there on the spot (ghouls) or might drag them away for a meal later (some animals).
It can be tough to balance verisimilitude against everyone having fun, so do what feels right for you and your group.
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I think picking up the weapon and running away with it is too far.
But having the enemy kick away or throw away might be a reasonable tactic, if the enemy expects that the fighter might get back up (if say the party has a healer).
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As always, context matters.
Smart enemies are also involved in a frantic fight. So a more common thought process for anyway mid-fight is to take care of any readily available threats that might kill them, that's why I don't think it's either fair, or reasonable, to have any kind of enemy just straight up attacking downed PCs (or NPCs) without any reasonable explanation, the same goes for the weapons they carry.
For instance, if the weapons the PC's are using are some kind of specific target (the enemies are trying to steal them), if they've been shown to be more than normal weapons (+X weapons don't count because they're just mechanical bullshit that shouldn't exist in the first place) or if there are no other readily available threats, then it makes sense for them to take the weapon. Like people usually do when they take down an armed foe that might wake up. Otherwise, as far as anyone knows the guy that has been whacked with a lethal weapon is out of the fight and dying, thus not a threat (status that might quickly change if healers are recognized or if healing spells are used mid-combat, then finishing off might be on the table for particularly vicious enemies).
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Personally, I don't think they would pick up the weapon and use it in the middle of a battle. Most PCs I know generally wouldn't do so.
It's an obviously magic weapon. Magic, especially magic you know nothing about, should be approached with a degree of caution. Especially if you're some noob bandit who knows little to nothing of magic.
Frankly, unless there was some story element that pushed my PC to grab an opponent's magic weapon to complete the battle, I'd leave it for after the battle. Let the magic types examine it, check for curses, does it have some sort of alignment restriction (like good characters holding it are enfeebled), etc.
Also, warriors typically use the weapons they are used to. Picking up a strange weapon and getting the feel for it in the middle of a life and death situation isn't optimal. I know the mechanics of PF2 don't account for handling an unfamiliar weapon, but not every longsword is balanced or feels the same. Now, if the bandit lost his weapon and the only weapon to hand was the strange magicky-one, then maybe the bandit would pick it up and use it.
This harkens back to the old idea that if a PC drops a magic weapon, or uses a magic thrown weapon, or anything along those lines, an NPC should just scoop it up and run off. After all, that magic weapon is worth a lot of money. Your average bandit would probably consider it a win to simply grab the loot, run off (leaving the other bandits to their fate) and survive the battle with magic loot he can sell (or use).
Comments about kicking the weapon away or doing something similar is common in real life and fine in battle.
Comments about enemies picking up the weapons of fallen opponents is correct AFTER THE BATTLE. It's not too common for opponents in battle to be policing up weapons in the middle of a fight.
Will no enemy EVER pick up the weapon... no, NPCs vary and the GM has to decide what happens. There may very well be an NPC who would pick up your magic weapon in the middle of battle, but I really doubt it would be the default expectation.
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To address a few answers, I'm not asking whether it's an intelligent tactic. I think it is. But for my table, I think it is a "mean" tactic given the way the PF2 rules work by moving the downed PC lower in the initiative (usually), and I'm wondering given specifically how the rules work whether others agree.
It also lays bare the asymmetry of how knockouts affect PCs. PCs go unconscious; monsters die. If, in the universe, enemies assume there is a fair chance that a knocked-out creature is not dead, shouldn't that mean monsters go Unconscious at 0 hp and that a PC's 3-action Heal spell might raise up enemies again? But the rules as written clearly say this isn't the case.
I'm now coming around to the idea that it will make for a harrowing, memorable moment to use occasionally. The moving downward in initiative also simulates the time needed to recover from being knocked out.
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Like all tactics this should be balanced against the severity of the encounter, the grittiness of the campaign, and the NPCs' context, i.e. a group that regularly battles a priesthood would likely have it ingrained in their training to attack downed enemies to verify they won't return.
IMO if playing so gritty, then the enemy needs to be scaled back a bit (either through strength or positioning to be (un)able to perform such follow-up tactics). And players need to know!
I'd thought it too meta for an NPC to snatch a weapon only to run away with it until somebody pointed out the NPC would be fleeing with possibly life-changing wealth. So if the bandits were driven by desperation for money and held little respect for one another, yeah, this might happen. If.
One thing to note is since most NPCs are not built like PCs the sword might not be as much of an upgrade as it would initially seem. Sure, if the sword matches the bandit's weapon of choice, then ouch. But otherwise you're recalculating without a lot of the abilities PCs use to boost their damage, or proficiency for that matter, nor with any NPC bonuses outside what weapons are listed, i.e. that flat bonus to damage they have to keep them on par for their level won't necessarily apply when swapping to a new weapon.
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it will make for a harrowing, memorable moment to use occasionally
"Occasionally" is the operative word.
Incidentally, it could also be a really funny, memorable moment. Like one that your players could rib each other about, or, characters find a bard singing a song about it at the next tavern.
The brute came a-charging across the land
They beat him and took the sword from his hand
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it screws with the character's ability to participate meaningfully in the encounter.
That's okay ... once in a while.
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Personally, I don't think they would pick up the weapon and use it in the middle of a battle. Most PCs I know generally wouldn't do so.
It's an obviously magic weapon. Magic, especially magic you know nothing about, should be approached with a degree of caution. Especially if you're some noob bandit who knows little to nothing of magic.
Frankly, unless there was some story element that pushed my PC to grab an opponent's magic weapon to complete the battle, I'd leave it for after the battle. Let the magic types examine it, check for curses, does it have some sort of alignment restriction (like good characters holding it are enfeebled), etc.
Also, warriors typically use the weapons they are used to. Picking up a strange weapon and getting the feel for it in the middle of a life and death situation isn't optimal. I know the mechanics of PF2 don't account for handling an unfamiliar weapon, but not every longsword is balanced or feels the same. Now, if the bandit lost his weapon and the only weapon to hand was the strange magicky-one, then maybe the bandit would pick it up and use it.
This harkens back to the old idea that if a PC drops a magic weapon, or uses a magic thrown weapon, or anything along those lines, an NPC should just scoop it up and run off. After all, that magic weapon is worth a lot of money. Your average bandit would probably consider it a win to simply grab the loot, run off (leaving the other bandits to their fate) and survive the battle with magic loot he can sell (or use).
Comments about kicking the weapon away or doing something similar is common in real life and fine in battle.
Comments about enemies picking up the weapons of fallen opponents is correct AFTER THE BATTLE. It's not too common for opponents in battle to be policing up weapons in the middle of a fight.
Will no enemy EVER pick up the weapon... no, NPCs vary and the GM has to decide what happens. There may very well be an NPC who would pick up your magic weapon in the middle of battle, but I...
I agree 100% with this.
PCs are the grubbiest, most avid for both money and any advantage they can grab, creatures I have ever seen. Yet I have never seen a PF2 PC take the weapon from a downed enemy before combat was finished. Not once.
If it did make good tactical sense, PCs would be doing it right and left.
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Personally, I don't think they would pick up the weapon and use it in the middle of a battle. Most PCs I know generally wouldn't do so.
It's an obviously magic weapon. Magic, especially magic you know nothing about, should be approached with a degree of caution. Especially if you're some noob bandit who knows little to nothing of magic.
Frankly, unless there was some story element that pushed my PC to grab an opponent's magic weapon to complete the battle, I'd leave it for after the battle. Let the magic types examine it, check for curses, does it have some sort of alignment restriction (like good characters holding it are enfeebled), etc.
Also, warriors typically use the weapons they are used to. Picking up a strange weapon and getting the feel for it in the middle of a life and death situation isn't optimal. I know the mechanics of PF2 don't account for handling an unfamiliar weapon, but not every longsword is balanced or feels the same. Now, if the bandit lost his weapon and the only weapon to hand was the strange magicky-one, then maybe the bandit would pick it up and use it.
This harkens back to the old idea that if a PC drops a magic weapon, or uses a magic thrown weapon, or anything along those lines, an NPC should just scoop it up and run off. After all, that magic weapon is worth a lot of money. Your average bandit would probably consider it a win to simply grab the loot, run off (leaving the other bandits to their fate) and survive the battle with magic loot he can sell (or use).
Comments about kicking the weapon away or doing something similar is common in real life and fine in battle.
Comments about enemies picking up the weapons of fallen opponents is correct AFTER THE BATTLE. It's not too common for opponents in battle to be policing up weapons in the middle of a fight.
Will no enemy EVER pick up the weapon... no, NPCs vary and the GM has to decide what happens. There may very well be an NPC who would pick up your magic weapon in the middle of battle, but I...
This isn't limited to (1) magic weapons and (2) picking up weapons to use themselves. The main benefit of taking an enemy's weapon is to deny them the benefit of it, not to gain the benefit yourself - your weapon is probably already is the one most suited for you.
I made a post at the subreddit recently where the barbazu devil's reach weapon in a confined room, while it had an attack of opportunity made the combat MUCH harder for the PCs. Now, if it were not a solo monster but was part of a group of monsters that had healing, it would be a completely valid tactic for the PCs to take the reach weapon away from it while it was downed. (Assuming of course that it were houseruled that it becomes Unconscious when downed.)
Similarly, PCs often have a weapon that, if they lose it, would significantly lower their fighting ability.
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I think it's fine tactically, and in the context given, it seems fine in terms of story-telling and player fairness as well.
Other peoples' comments regarding situational context are pretty apt.
What I wonder about though is, would it help the enemy at all? NPC stats don't generally change based on gear--that's just fluff. They changed based on the needs of the story and the PCs' current level.
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I agree 100% with this.
PCs are the grubbiest, most avid for both money and any advantage they can grab, creatures I have ever seen. Yet I have never seen a PF2 PC take the weapon from a downed enemy before combat was finished. Not once.
If it did make good tactical sense, PCs would be doing it right and left.
Well, part of the problem here is the asymmetry of monster design.
It's not a usseful tactic for PCs because Monsters get 0% of their stats from gear. You'll often have monsters using very mundane weapons but swinging as if they had powerful magical equipment because that's how NPCs are built.
But a player character at higher levels can easily have half or more of their total damage output come from their weapon.
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I think it is valid to say that the rules don't encourage the GM picking up the weapon and using it. Since doing so, the GM would have to decide what damage the weapon would do, since that is a GM call, not more strictly defined as it is for PCs. The game doesn't prohibit it, as obviously, damage for a monster is within the scope of the GM. They could decide to use the monster's normal damage but add the flaming rune, or decide to use the weapon and striking runes damage, or use that and apply all or part of the normal + damage the monster normally got.
Should the GM use the tactic. If the options comes up and it is an obvious one. Big fighter using obviously magical weapon with massive damage, and the opponent who knocked him out would feel like they would be competent with such a weapon, sure have them pick it up and wield it.
Typically, I will have most monsters assume that a knocked out opponent is on their way to dead, unless they have a specific reason to believe otherwise. After all, for normal NPCs the way the rules work, that would normally be the case, so how they see the world, those they knock down seldom get up soon after. Highly intelligent martial foes, or ones with medical knowledge of the PCs may well be more aware of the difference between down/dying/dead, and might change their behavior because of that. NPCs seeing their foes fall down and get up moments later may well re-adjust their behavior to consider downed foes, still a threat further into their battle if they learn that.
Unless a foe has a reputation for being bloodthirsty killers, I would not have them attack a downed foe generally. If a particular foe has a particularly nasty grievance with the particular PC they just took down, that could change that situation, but as a general rule, they will normally consider down = out.
As for tossing a weapon aside, I'm less inclined to do that in combat. If the weapon is worthwhile picking up to use, that seems like one thing. If by defeating this foe, they honestly think they have defeated the party, they might do so, but that doesn't seem to be the circumstance you are talking about.
As for stealing an unattended weapon from a down individual. That would probably take a thief mentality (which a bandit might just fall in) if it was obviously valuable, and presumably not dangerous to the thief. So some bandits might avoid a flaming sword for fear they might get burned by it, if they don't have reason to know it never affects the wielder. If there is a cowardly goblin nearby the combat trapped between the hobgoblin masters, and the PCs, and the PC being downed, clears the way for the goblin to flee back behind the hobgoblins. It wouldn't be unreasonable to consider the goblin potentially taking the weapon or some other valuable item from the fallen and running with it, as long as no-one could hit it while doing it.
I don't imagine this average cowardly goblin thief running out into battle closer to the PCs to snag such a weapon, as a general rule, unless his masters are particularly nasty, and he honestly fears them more than the PCs.
Keep in mind, if they are concerned about the item being snagged, someone aiding their friend, after stabilizing them, could put their hand on the weapon, making it no longer considered unattended. After all, although it is true the downed PC got moved back in initiative order, it is also true that they can't retrieve their weapon until someone else helps them get stabilized and conscious.
If they are really concerned about having their weapon lost out of their hands, they can spend their hero points to prevent themselves from increasing their Dying threshold. (right?)
Anyway, I wouldn't make it a staple, primary tactic. But if the PCs make it clear one particular person is producing the most damage, and much of it is coming from the weapon, I wouldn't be averse to intelligent opponents trying to keep the weapon in question out of the PCs hands. They might even burn actions to keep other PCs from picking up the weapon, despite the fact it might be possible none of the other PCs might know how to use the weapon, even if the downed PC stays down for instance.
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The OP's idea is terrible, and I know it from personal experience. We were fighting about eight enemies, our fighter went down, and before our sorcerer could heal them, the enemy stole the weapon and moved behind enemy lines. It acomplished nothing except delaying combat by 30 minutes (real time).
Likewise, you should be careful about using enemies that spam darkness and invisibility, because those do nothing but lengthen combat.
I feel that I should say under no circumstance should you attack an unconscious PC. You will kill them 100% of the time. As with stealing their weapons, you don't have the excuse of "It's realistic!", because it's not.
What exactly do you mean "not realistic"?
I do not tend to attack fallen PCs unless the monster clearly sees the PCs are getting back up from healing. I play the monsters to win against the PCs as though they are real living creatures trying to survive in a harsh world. They aren't going to sit back and let some healer get someone back into battle over and over again. They're going to finish that person on the ground so magical healing doesn't work and then go after the healer if they can.
The entire world isn't realistic, so you adjust the thinking of the enemies to fit the world. In the real world we don't have some magical healer to get someone back up after they've been taken out and there are no magical weapons, so of course you don't completely base tactical measures taken by monsters in a "realistic" way.
You base it on the tactics monsters and enemies would employ in a world given the abilities of the creatures in that world. Given that magical healing exists, the main way a nonmagical creature can defeat it is making sure the target is dead and incapable of getting back up.
All this does is make the players adjust their tactics to deal with this situation by either not falling, healing before they fall, and making sure to fight in a tactical manner that doesn't put them in that position.
I imagine it comes down to personal preference. I like a game where it feels like the enemy is trying to do their best to end you. I want the PCs to feel fear and the possibility of death.
And as far as the OP, it is unlikely a fighter runs into the middle of a bunch of bandits, gets knocked out, and has his weapon taken before the rest of the party brings the pain on them. I've only seen this happen one time I can recall because the party fighter crawled up a hill going ahead alone and tried to climb over a barricade while a bunch of hobgoblins beat on him. He didn't just lose his magic sword, he lost his life. He made a new character. It was tactically ridiculous and he paid the price for it.
I know not everyone likes this type of game. But over the years it made my particular group play better because they know the pain is coming if they play tactically unsound and make bad decisions with no help in the vicinity.
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Reason #37 why ABP is superior.
Jokes aside. Yeah, this could be a devastatingly mean tactic as a GM in any campaign not using ABP. You basically cripple a PC and potentially boost an enemy in a way that isn't fun at all.
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Surely it is fun for the GM.
Not sure if that was meant as a joke so I'll treat it as if it was serious.
Hopefully not.
Most good GMs I know want
a) The game to be a challenge
b) The players to have fun
c) The characters to (mostly) win.
The high level character losing their weapon is quite often literally worse than the high level character dying (raise dead fixes death). And will certainly be perceived as such by the players more often than it really is :-(.
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I feel that I should say under no circumstance should you attack an unconscious PC. You will kill them 100% of the time. As with stealing their weapons, you don't have the excuse of "It's realistic!", because it's not.What exactly do you mean "not realistic"?
I do not tend to attack fallen PCs unless the monster clearly sees the PCs are getting back up from healing. I play the monsters to win against the PCs as though they are real living creatures trying to survive in a harsh world. They aren't going to sit back and let some healer get someone back into battle over and over again. They're going to finish that person on the ground so magical healing doesn't work and then go after the healer if they can.
The entire world isn't realistic, so you adjust the thinking of the enemies to fit the world. In the real world we don't have some magical healer to get someone back up after they've been taken out and there are no magical weapons, so of course you don't completely base tactical measures taken by monsters in a "realistic" way.
You base it on the tactics monsters and enemies would employ in a world given the abilities of the creatures in that world. Given that magical healing exists, the main way a nonmagical creature can defeat it is making sure the target is dead and incapable of getting back up.
All this does is make the players adjust their tactics to deal with this situation by either not falling, healing before they fall, and making sure to fight in a tactical manner that doesn't put them in that position.
I imagine it comes down to personal preference. I like a game where it feels like the enemy is trying to do their best to end you. I want the PCs to feel fear and the possibility of death.
And as far as the OP, it is unlikely a fighter runs into the middle of a bunch of bandits, gets knocked out, and has his weapon taken before the rest of the party brings the pain on them. I've only seen this happen one time I can recall because the party fighter crawled up a hill going ahead alone and tried to climb over a barricade while a bunch of hobgoblins beat on him. He didn't just lose his magic sword, he lost his life. He made a new character. It was tactically ridiculous and he paid the price for it.
I know not everyone likes this type of game. But over the years it made my particular group play better because they know the pain is coming if they play tactically unsound and make bad decisions with no help in the vicinity.
So, you kill your players' PCs whenever they drop to dying? That's not the "possibility of death", that's a 100% certainty. 2E combat being what it is, you don't need to "play tactically unsound and make bad decisions" to get knocked down to dying.
If you play all enemies as focusing fire on downed PCs, those enemies prioritize killing PCs over defeating the people that are a threat to themselves. It's weird. Do they realize they're less important than the PCs are to the narrative, so they sacrifice themselves to take them out? It's GM meta-gaming, which is the other reason I don't like it.
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...I feel that I should say under no circumstance should you attack an unconscious PC. You will kill them 100% of the time. As with stealing their weapons, you don't have the excuse of "It's realistic!", because it's not.What exactly do you mean "not realistic"?
I do not tend to attack fallen PCs unless the monster clearly sees the PCs are getting back up from healing. I play the monsters to win against the PCs as though they are real living creatures trying to survive in a harsh world. They aren't going to sit back and let some healer get someone back into battle over and over again. They're going to finish that person on the ground so magical healing doesn't work and then go after the healer if they can.
The entire world isn't realistic, so you adjust the thinking of the enemies to fit the world. In the real world we don't have some magical healer to get someone back up after they've been taken out and there are no magical weapons, so of course you don't completely base tactical measures taken by monsters in a "realistic" way.
You base it on the tactics monsters and enemies would employ in a world given the abilities of the creatures in that world. Given that magical healing exists, the main way a nonmagical creature can defeat it is making sure the target is dead and incapable of getting back up.
All this does is make the players adjust their tactics to deal with this situation by either not falling, healing before they fall, and making sure to fight in a tactical manner that doesn't put them in that position.
I imagine it comes down to personal preference. I like a game where it feels like the enemy is trying to do their best to end you. I want the PCs to feel fear and the possibility of death.
And as far as the OP, it is unlikely a fighter runs into the middle of a bunch of bandits, gets knocked out, and has his weapon taken before the rest of the party brings the pain on them. I've only seen this happen one time I can
No. The PCs adapted their play to ensure they don't fall or stay down. Players adapt to survive.
Playing monsters as though they're trying to win doesn't guarantee PC death unless you build the encounter badly. If I build an encounter badly, then I acknowledge such and adjust it.
A game where the PCs are never threatened with death lacks tension and a sense of danger in my opinion.
Not sure if you have some bad experience with killer DMs that colors your viewpoint, but I'm not talking about being a killer DM. I'm talking about instilling a strong sense of danger and ensuring the players always feel like they have to play smart to live.
I've played with DMs that run everything in a very easy manner where nothing is challenging, nothing feels earned, nothing feels dangerous or deadly and it was exceedingly boring. So I prefer a DM who is willing to take out a PC if that is what makes sense for the monster and the tactics being used against it.
I don't tend to focus fire on a downed PC until the monster clearly knows a healer is present getting them back up off the ground or it wants to use the PC as a hostage threatening it with death if the PCs don't back off. It's circumstantial, but definitely not off-limits.
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No. The PCs adapted their play to ensure they don't fall or stay down. Players adapt to survive.
Playing monsters as though they're trying to win doesn't guarantee PC death unless you build the encounter badly. If I build an encounter badly, then I acknowledge such and adjust it.
...I don't tend to focus fire on a downed PC until the monster clearly knows a healer is present getting them back up off the ground or it wants to use the PC as a hostage threatening it with death if the PCs don't back off. It's circumstantial, but definitely not off-limits.
I'm skeptical of your claim that your PCs simply never go down. I think you must scale your encounters way down or that you don't actually attack dying PCs that often. Have you ever actually killed a PC that way?
Here's how that goes from experience: The GM decided that an enemy would focus fire on a downed PC. Predictably, that PC died. Then the GM decided that the player could create a new PC that was awkwardly inserted into the middle of an AP. It was that or exiling the player from the campaign, so I guess it was the best of two poor choices.
The problem with that approach is it also removed any tension or sense of danger. It's worse than simply not attacking fallen PCs; character death becomes a license to create a different PC. Sure enough, the player in question later killed off his 2nd PC because he knew he could just roll a 3rd one.
So, to answer the OP's question, as a GM don't steal player's weapons and don't attack dying players. It creates problems for you to solve later and there are other ways to have tense combats with high stakes.
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No. The PCs adapted their play to ensure they don't fall or stay down. Players adapt to survive.
Playing monsters as though they're trying to win doesn't guarantee PC death unless you build the encounter badly. If I build an encounter badly, then I acknowledge such and adjust it.
...I don't tend to focus fire on a downed PC until the monster clearly knows a healer is present getting them back up off the ground or it wants to use the PC as a hostage threatening it with death if the PCs don't back off. It's circumstantial, but definitely not off-limits.
I'm skeptical of your claim that your PCs simply never go down. I think you must scale your encounters way down or that you don't actually attack dying PCs that often. Have you ever actually killed a PC that way?
Here's how that goes from experience: The GM decided that an enemy would focus fire on a downed PC. Predictably, that PC died. Then the GM decided that the player could create a new PC that was awkwardly inserted into the middle of an AP. It was that or exiling the player from the campaign, so I guess it was the best of two poor choices.
The problem with that approach is it also removed any tension or sense of danger. It's worse than simply not attacking fallen PCs; character death becomes a license to create a different PC. Sure enough, the player in question later killed off his 2nd PC because he knew he could just roll a 3rd one.
So, to answer the OP's question, as a GM don't steal player's weapons and don't attack dying players. It creates problems for you to solve later and there are other ways to have tense combats with high stakes.
They don't never go down. I'd be insane to say that. They just don't go down as often.
We heal them before they go down is one adjustment. I'm having this discussion in another thread right now where I've found some groups run with no combat heal spell and we don't because if a creature is really tearing through the party hit points, we pre-emptively start healing.
If we have a cleric, they will take a spell like Drop Dead to also protect a target close to going down. I heard people find this spell not so great, but we've used it 4 or 5 times to provide time to get someone back on their feet. The cleric might also take the breath of life equivalent to revive a dead character.
When we don't have access to those spells the healer will use the delay action to wait until the monster has gone, then heal the fallen foe so they can't be hit as easily and will be able to execute their actions while the creature is focused on another target.
Little tactical adjustments usually allow them to survive. The party usually only falls against powerful boss monsters. So it only comes up 1 to 3 times per module. So not too often. PF2 modules tend to be fairly survivable save for a few encounters here and there each module where some powerful monster threatens the party.
If a fighter what the OP wrote and ran ahead alone against enemies that could knock it out that fast, I wouldn't be nice to them. A fighter with a +2 greater striking flaming sword should be around lvl 12. A lvl 12 character should not be putting themselves in a position to get knocked out that fast unless something really weird happens. A lvl 12 party backing a lvl 12 fighter should be able to pretty easily bring the pain on a group of mook bandits should they decide to try to steal his weapon if something strange like this happened.
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If we have a cleric, they will take a spell like Drop Dead to also protect a target close to going down. I heard people find this spell not so great, but we've used it 4 or 5 times to provide time to get someone back on their feet. The cleric might also take the breath of life equivalent to revive a dead character.Little correction there:
the Trigger is A living creature within range would die..
I believe you are looking at the wrong reaction spell. Drop Dead triggers when a creature is struck by an enemy attack.
Breath of Life works as you say, however. For the reasons you list above, I have tentatively allowed 'dies' to trigger on a creature being given the Dying condition and falling unconscious. Perhaps I am curbing my enemy attacks too often, but it's rather uncommon in my game that anybody falls unconscious, much less actually dies, and I want the Cleric's spell actually to get use.
(To be fair, part of the reason why it's so hard to kill my players includes the fact that one is a Champion and another is a dwarf Monk with Barbarian multiclass. Their hit points and AC are double the cleric's (who, amusingly, was the most recent person to fall unconscious when a vampire bard miniboss decided to spirit blast him personally)
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If an NPC fighter pulls out a flaming longsword and starts to lay down some smack, the PC's would try to get that sword out of NPC's hands ASAP. I know I've seen it done at my table, time and time again. I've had players disarm my NPC's of their fancy weapons before and use it against them. I've had NPC's do the same to the party!
As I tell my players, if you can do it, so can the NPC's and they are fine with it. They expect it!
So if the pc fighter gets knocked out while fighting bandits, if the Bandit leader is nearby they will try to snag the weapon. Normal bandits will simply knock it away or pick it up depending on the situation.
Also stop playing like your NPC's don't know that Healing magic don't exist in the game! If they are intelligent or have experienced it before, they will know very well that healing magic exist after all they are living in a magical living breathing world so as the GM I have my NPC's act accordingly to their surroundings.
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Ha! Yes, knock them out, but don't have some random bandit just try to slash at your heroes. He knows he's gonna lose that fight. Dude's been trying to scrape together a living as a highwayman. He gets a few thousand in gold dropped into his lap. Homie is bolting with that. Run away. Scatter. All the bandits can make their way to the hideout while your group's Fighter comes to.The enemy consists of intelligent human bandits. The party's fighter charges forward with a +2 greater striking flaming longsword, and during the battle the bandits succeed at knocking out the fighter.
When you gain the Unconscious condition in this game, you drop everything you're holding.
Shouldn't a bandit pick up the weapon?
Tactically this seems like the right thing to do. But I see a problem with how this interacts with another rule:
When you fall unconscious, your initiative changes to just before the effect that knocked you out. This more often than not results in a delay before you can act again.
This rule allows the party to aid you in recovering, but it also delays when you can pick up your dropped weapons. So it feels like having an enemy pick up your weapon was something the designers didn't account for. And it feels especially bad if you couldn't rescue your weapon simply because your initiative was delayed.
What do others think about this?
Hahahaha. The bandit isn't even thinking about using it. It's about what he can sell that shiny magic sword for. A king's ransom and a life of leisure.