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It's like this alternate rule has suddenly allowed everyone to be everything and now the game "works fine" for them.And that's bad?
If choosing Free Archetype is making a game work, then what's wrong with the base game that people are so dissatisfied with it that they need to nearly double the number of feats and add another line of options than what the base class provides? Not a great selling point in my opinion.
What was wrong with the Dnd 3.5 classes that we needed all these extra abilities and class options in P1?
What was wrong with the base game that we needed Archetypes? More classes?
Adding more options, especially optional rules, does not imply a "wrongness" with the base game. Almost everyone likes to tweak things to their preferences. Free Archetype gives people more room to play with their characters and build them how they want, that does not automatically mean the classes without them are broken or "wrong".
I like caramel on my vanilla ice cream. That does not mean that vanilla ice cream is bad.
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Deriven your arguments are... really bad, I know you don't like being wrong but you're starting to put words in people's mouths to try and salvage a losing argument.
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I mean, the core of the problem with "people who play with variant rules that fix the problems they perceive in the basic rules aren't going to notice those problems" is that if Paizo is convinced of a problem, the most likely fix for that is "we're going to print a variant rule or player option to fix it."
If you actually want Paizo to fix something with errata, you're better off with an argument about "this doesn't work the way it's supposed to" like how Bladed Scarves became finesse weapons and how Anadi gained the ability to weave, cast spells, and open doors, than with anything that has to do with power.
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Also, I don't agree with the line of thinking that "people could take feat X anyway, you're not adding much more power giving it for free". Now they can take X and Y instead of having to choose. Pretty often there'll be more than one solid choice at a level.
And even about Reactions - yes, if you already have Attack of Opportunity, a Paladin retributive strike isn't quite as strong as when you don't have any reaction yet at all. But it's quite different for a ranger - much of the time your Disrupt Prey isn't working because it's not your Prey who's doing naughty things. And even for the fighter with AoO, having Retributive Strike can allow you to set up a situation where there's simply nothing an enemy can do that you won't punish. Hit me? Shield block. Hit my friend? Retributive Strike. Walk away? AoO. Yes, you can only do one of them, but you're almost guaranteed to actually get to do it because you cover all the situations.
OK, I want to test this claim. Let's take a highly optimized Fighter build - Exocist's Gnomish Flickmace + Spiked Gauntlet Reach Champion Fighter.
1: Double Slice (Retrain to Sudden Charge at 5, retrain back at 19 if you care by then)
2: Dueling Parry
4: Champion Dedication (Paladin)
6: Champion Reaction
8: Dueling Riposte
(9): Knockdown
10: Combat Reflexes
12: Dueling Dance
14: Improved Dueling Riposte
(15): Improved Knockdown
16: Determination / Stance Savant / Blind-Fight
18: Savage Critical
20: Boundless ReprisalsIt already has all the reactions in the world, which are his main source of extra DPR, due to the huge amount of MAP-0 attacks he can make in a round with his reach and AoO + Dueling Riposte + Champion's Reactions. This is an example of a build that already has the best possible options for increasing DPR.
I claim that due to this, Free Archetype would not be able to push this build all that much in power level.
I would be curious to see someone show how Free Archetype suddenly makes this build meaningfully stronger.
By adding Dandy of course. I mean, you can't win any of the fights at parties that you don't get invited to.
But in seriousness: yeah, you have killing things down to a science. Not much room for improving that part. But you can add things like Marshal to provide that nice aura of permanent action-free bonus (assuming that you aren't tanking CHA), or Medic to provide healing for the party.
...
Which of course won't add any meaningful power to the party if the party already has a Bard and Cleric.
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Most of those suggestions are either already a part of this character's base feats progression (skill feats, general feats like Canny Acumen, Toughness) or they would eat your action economy, adding no additional power to your turns, some examples--
e.g. Inspiring Marshal requires an action to jump into, rage adds another action to drop into rage, ranged reprisal is fine, but you still only have one reaction until 20th level.
Action Economy is an essential part of pf2e's balancing, you can't just yeet additional actions of setup out of the void, at minimum you'd need wounded rage to maaaaybe smooth rage into your rotation, and the martial stance stuff isn't super usable without giving up actions from Exocist's well crafted Two-Strikes + Dueling Parry 3 action rotation, if you trade parry, your AC drops, if you drop an attack, you're losing damage and potentially a knockdown.
Never mind that you have to move.
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Barbarian dedication would be actively bad for that build IMO, lowered AC = less riposte chance and the flat damage descales.
Increased saves is basically unattainable as well - the only one you can increase is Will, and the only way you can do that by MC is (iirc) Monk, which requires Dex, which we don’t want. Better to wait for canny acumen.
Improvements can still be done though. Add a shield to the free hand, add Bastion and Quick Block from Champion MC. Swap Dueling Dance to Paragon Guard. Now you have 2 more reactions for shield blocks, which means enemies definitely don’t want to attack you, which means more chance for attack op and champ reaction to trigger. You turn off your ability to use regular riposte, but improved riposte can be used without a free hand.
Could even add Sorcerer for Embrace the Pit if you wanted some more, though I haven’t thought on it that much. My basic improved build with free arch would be
1: Double Slice (Retrain to Sudden Charge at 5, retrain back at 19 if you care by then)
2: Dueling Parry
4: Healing Touch
6: Knockdown
8: Dueling Riposte
(9): Blind-Fight
10: Combat Reflexes
12: Paragon Guard
14: Improved Dueling Riposte
(15): Improved Knockdown
16: Determination / Stance Savant
18: Savage Critical
20: Boundless Reprisals
Archetype feats
2: Champion Ded
4: Basic devotion (ranged reprisal)
6: Champion react
8: Bastion ded
10: Quick Shield Block
12: Reflexive Shield / Destructive Block / Disarming Block
14: Sorcerer ded (Diabolic) or some random level 1-2 sorc feat if you have multitalented
16: Quick Block (from Champion)
18: Random level 1-2 sorc feat or Embrace the Pit
20: Embrace the Pit or idk
I too disagree with some of the feats given as examples, yet it's not difficult to find useful ones. With this optimum build improvement might be more situational or passive, but it's still present. Heck, it could go Barbarian (and not use Rage!) simply for the Resiliency and some tricks. That wouldn't be the best route, but it shows how simple it is to improve.
Let's not move the goalposts here.
Can an optimum build be improved with Free Archetype rules? Yes.
With each feat, whether incrementally or in terms of roles.
Arguably the feats which would make a larger difference would be the ones already chosen sans FA yet some builds might find some major help (especially defensively).
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Separately, when I first heard of Free Archetype I thought that's generous, giving a free Dedication like that. Little had I realized it was far more than that. :O That does wipe out a dozen hard choices I've made in preparing PCs and would make many of my own (potential) PCs more powerful in notable ways. Remains a bit shocking to hear others say FA makes little difference.
Yet as mentioned, fun takes precedence and one can tune the encounters to any differences. Published adventures? Sure, FA = easier mode, but given how hard some are like Fall of Plaguestone, "easier" sometimes is "normal", not easy. And PF2 has a lot of cushion, some players enjoy less struggle, some campaigns push an archetype without wanting to intrude on a PC's concept, and many tables run homebrew anyway.
So yeah, Free Archetype has its place in the PF2 world (if the number of advocates wasn't indicator enough!), but IMO it lessens the game when used for PC improvement rather than narrative purposes.
/two cents
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I leave flight to be handled by items tbh. The free hand means you can trivially draw a potion (or scroll if you want to save money and have trick magic item) of flying, or use a permanent item that has X/day flight like cloak of the bat. By the highest level where flight is the most common, you’d just buy permanent flight from a greater cloak of the bat or greater winged rune.
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Didn't include the beastmaster archetype not to be meanDo you mean I'm missing beastmaster dedication? It's at level 8 retrained.
I knew the familiar would be controversial, which is why I offered Resiliency as an alternative. I agree with flight probably being a non-issue, but another alternative is for the familiar to be independent + valet for action efficiency on consumables, such as flying potions.
An alternative to using familiar master for independent valet (which is shaky on actually working btw, there’s been some statements floating around which indicate the intent was that valet only works on capital-C Command, and therefore can’t be used with independent - we’ll see when the APG gets errata) is to simply adopt into gnome and use animal accomplice. This also has the advantage of letting you take gnome weapon familiarity and therefore frees your ancestry off human.
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2) Too many pets: 2 out of 5 characters took as free dedication the beast master one, which led to 2 more creatures for the enemies to deal with, and a sensible damage improvement. The healer, a druid, also took the skill feats to train and move animals, resulting in a generous amount of power ( 50% of the time, simply because he couldn't manage to always get an updated "pet", with proper combat stats ).
Pets that take action should be banned in large groups. Its just a question of player air time. Familiars and mounts that don't do a lot can be OK, but action combat minions are best left out of large groups. Conversly encouraged in groups with 3 or less players as they help even out the dice.
Improvements can still be done though. Add a shield to the free hand, add Bastion and Quick Block from Champion MC. Swap Dueling Dance to Paragon Guard. Now you have 2 more reactions for shield blocks, which means enemies definitely don’t want to attack you, which means more chance for attack op and champ reaction to trigger. You turn off your ability to use regular riposte, but improved riposte can be used without a free hand.
Could even add Sorcerer for Embrace the Pit if you wanted some more, though I haven’t thought on it that much. My basic improved build with free arch would be
1: Double Slice (Retrain to Sudden Charge at 5, retrain back at 19 if you care by then)
2: Dueling Parry
4: Healing Touch
6: Knockdown
8: Dueling Riposte
(9): Blind-Fight
10: Combat Reflexes
12: Paragon Guard
14: Improved Dueling Riposte
(15): Improved Knockdown
16: Determination / Stance Savant
18: Savage Critical
20: Boundless ReprisalsArchetype feats
2: Champion Ded
4: Basic devotion (ranged reprisal)
6: Champion react
8: Bastion ded
10: Quick Shield Block
12: Reflexive Shield / Destructive Block / Disarming Block
14: Sorcerer ded (Diabolic) or some random level 1-2 sorc feat if you have multitalented
16: Quick Block (from Champion)
18: Random level 1-2 sorc feat or Embrace the Pit
20: Embrace the Pit or idk
I never said it couldn't be improved, what I was saying is that it couldn't be "meaningfully stronger", which of course isn't an exact measurement, but to me, this new FA build you wrote is proving that admittedly vague claim.
Yes, you have better defensive abilities, but you already had the core of the build's power and synergies, and FA is just adding some sugar on top.
The main difference for me is that while FA can add ~20-30% more power to already optimized builds, it could add ~50-60% to previously downright bad builds by letting them get their core synergies online earlier and with less of a sacrifice. Overall, this means that concepts that were previously unattainable without sacrificing a good chunk of your utility to the party become less punishing to build.
For me, that is a huge gain. Especially considering how, as other posters have already said, PF2e encounters are extremely easy to balance on the GMs side.
FA gives:
A better stride (focus spell)
Ranged reprisal
An automatic companion
An automatic familiar OR 24 more health
A free weapon rune that stacks
Again, I believe these benefits prove my points as mentioned above.
Now I just have to give an example of a previously mediocre concept build that gains a lot from FA, allowing the concept to be pulled off without sacrificing a huge amount of power. Luckily, I already have that in the form of this Dragon of the West (Iroh) Build by TheGentelmanDM.
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OK, I want to test this claim. Let's take a highly optimized Fighter build - Exocist's Gnomish Flickmace + Spiked Gauntlet Reach Champion Fighter.
(...)
I would be curious to see someone show how Free Archetype suddenly makes this build meaningfully stronger.
Well let's start with the question of whether this build is even legal. Dueling Parry has this requirement:
You are wielding only a single one-handed melee weapon and have your other hand or hands free.
If you're wielding a flickmace in your right hand and wearing a gauntlet on your left, then you are actually wielding TWO weapons, because your gauntlet-hand meets the definition of "wielding":
You’re wielding an item any time you’re holding it in the number of hands needed to use it effectively. When wielding an item, you’re not just carrying it around—you’re ready to use it.
If you can strike with the gauntlet, then by definition you're wielding it. Therefore, you're not wielding "only a single" weapon. Yes, your other hand is free, but it's also wielding a weapon.
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Let's pretend that we found some workaround for that though - like not using a gauntlet. The only feat in this build that actually requires a gauntlet is double slice. We can pick something else for it instead, like Snagging Strike or Sudden Charge.
Now let's see what FA allows us to do. strikethrough are feats we don't take with class feats anymore italics are what we replace them with bold are FA feats.
Make sure at level 1 to put Dex at 12+.
1: Double Slice Snagging Strike or Sudden Charge
2: Dueling Parry Champion Dedication (Paladin)
4: Champion Dedication (Paladin) Knockdown, Lunge, Intimidating Strike, or Combat Grab open choice of Healing Touch, Basic Devotion (Domain Initiate, Divine Grace or an Oath relevant to your campaign).
(5) make sure to raise Dex to 14+
6: Champion Reaction Basic Devotion (Ranged Reprisal)
(general 7: Feather Step; makes Ranged Reprisal work better)
8: Dueling Riposte Rogue Dedication
(9): Knockdown, Intimidating Strike, Blind-Fight or Felling Strike, depending on what you think you're doing that day. If at L4 you took Intimidating Strike, also Shatter Defenses. If at L4 you took Combat Grab, then also Dazing Blow.
10: Combat Reflexes Uncanny Dodge
12: Dueling Dance Basic Trickery (Mobility)
14: Improved Dueling Riposte Advanced Trickery (Gang Up)
(15): Improved Knockdown or Shatter Defenses
16: Determination / Stance Savant / Blind-Fight Advanced Trickery (Opportune Backstab or one of the others)
18: Savage Critical Advanced Devotion (Divine Ally (Blade))
20: Boundless Reprisals Advanced Devotion (Smite Evil)
Of course this build is ridiculously top-heavy on hitting and neglects other things. You could have easily built it differently, for example using the Rogue dedication to pick up lots of Skill Mastery.
The "meaningfully stronger" comes from getting:
- Some more low level fighter feats that you don't have to spend on archetype feats. There are some good Plan B feats in there like Lunge and some prerequisites like Intimidating Strike or Combat Grab that let you get more mileage out of combat flexibility later.
- You can squeeze in Ranged Reprisal which increases the area you cover with the "strike back" part of your paladin reaction from 14 to 26 squares.
- Rogue Dedication > Uncanny Dodge > Deny Advantage boosts your Dueling Riposte odds and makes rogue mooks a joke. And some APs are totally crawling with those.
- Rogue > Mobility together with traditional speed boosters like Boots of Bounding and Fleet feet allow you to move around the battlefield with impunity and position yourself wherever you like.
- Rogue > Gang Up allows you to almost always attack flat-footed enemies, especially with a reach heavy build.
- Rogue > Opportune Backstab is perhaps the most often triggering reaction that grants another attack. It probably triggers as often as all the other reactions combined.
What's the magic sauce going on here?
- Usually at low levels you're trying to fit together the core pieces of your build, taking class feats that allow you to run through your preferred combat loop. OR you multiclass to get those pieces. Now you can have both.
- By finishing up everything we want from the champion at level 6 we can jump into rogue at 8. Just in time, because most multiclass dedications have something really juicy at 10. That would normally compete with your own class also having some really key juicy stuff at 10, but now you can have both.
- At the late levels you get to take key rogue feats (Gang Up, Opportune Backstab) that normally you'd still seriously consider spending a level 14 or 16 fighter feat on, but now you just get them for free without sacrificing anything from your core build.
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Gauntlets (Spiked or normal) count as having a free hand, even when you're wielding them. Best of both worlds.
The price for this tremendous flexibility is having a 1d4 weapon, and they're so far the only weapons with this ability.
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Gauntlets (Spiked or normal) count as having a free hand, even when you're wielding them. Best of both worlds.
The price for this tremendous flexibility is having a 1d4 weapon, and they're so far the only weapons with this ability.
Yes, but there are two requirements:
- You're wielding only one weapon- You have a free hand
Flickmace + Gauntlet violates the first requirement, because by the definition of "wielding", if you can use the gauntlet, then you're wielding it.
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Gauntlets (Spiked or normal) count as having a free hand, even when you're wielding them. Best of both worlds.
The price for this tremendous flexibility is having a 1d4 weapon, and they're so far the only weapons with this ability.Yes, but there are two requirements:
- You're wielding only one weapon
- You have a free handFlickmace + Gauntlet violates the first requirement, because by the definition of "wielding", if you can use the gauntlet, then you're wielding it.
I disagree with that interpretation of the "Free-Hand" trait.
I believe the whole point of it is it's as if you don't have a weapon, yet you can smack somebody with it. One's hand is fully functional, like a free hand, so I can't see disallowing this.Personally I'd likely go w/ a shield, especially w/ Champion MCD and to get some blocks in as needed.
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Gauntlets (Spiked or normal) count as having a free hand, even when you're wielding them. Best of both worlds.
The price for this tremendous flexibility is having a 1d4 weapon, and they're so far the only weapons with this ability.Yes, but there are two requirements:
- You're wielding only one weapon
- You have a free handFlickmace + Gauntlet violates the first requirement, because by the definition of "wielding", if you can use the gauntlet, then you're wielding it.
I disagree with that interpretation of the "Free-Hand" trait.
I believe the whole point of it is it's as if you don't have a weapon, yet you can smack somebody with it. One's hand is fully functional, like a free hand, so I can't see disallowing this.Personally I'd likely go w/ a shield, especially w/ Champion MCD and to get some blocks in as needed.
You're stretching the definition of Free-Hand. Free-Hand works for things that require the hand to be "free". Compare these two feats:
Snagging Strike: "You have one hand free, and your target is within reach of that hand."
Dueling Parry: "You are wielding only a single one-handed melee weapon and have your other hand or hands free."
If it was only about having a free hand, then Dueling Parry only needed the second part of its requirement, just like Snagging Strike. But they added another requirement and made it really specific: you are wielding ONLY a single one-handed weapon. If the point was just that you had at least one weapon, they wouldn't need the "only". If the point was having a free hand left over, they also wouldn't need the "only".
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Also none of this matters, because the accuracy of the encounter building rules under free archetype and without free archetype is the same, so even if it did add power, that power is essentially negligible.
It makes it easier to optimize, but it doesn't actually raise the ceiling on the actual game any.
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Also none of this matters, because the accuracy of the encounter building rules under free archetype and without free archetype is the same, so even if it did add power, that power is essentially negligible.
It makes it easier to optimize, but it doesn't actually raise the ceiling on the actual game any.
That's what the raw says but, unfortunately,far from being true.
Consider that even without free archetype, a moderate use of companions would easily affect the combat.
And this could also be said about the "rules" For additional players, which doesn't work very well when it comes to offer a balanced encounter ( it becomes more of a stomp fiesta).
Uh, I'm speaking from experience, with my actual group that includes some pretty heavy optimizers, and what they could handle before and after.
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Also none of this matters, because the accuracy of the encounter building rules under free archetype and without free archetype is the same, so even if it did add power, that power is essentially negligible.
It makes it easier to optimize, but it doesn't actually raise the ceiling on the actual game any.
That's what the raw says but, unfortunately,far from being true.
Consider that even without free archetype, a moderate use of companions would easily affect the combat.
It's been true to my experiences with free archetypes. The encounters I've designed as a GM have lived up to their on-paper challenge both before and after free archetypes were implemented in campaigns I run. If moderate use of companions unbalances encounters in problematic ways, maybe the table should put a limit on the number of companions allowed in the party whether it's free archetype or not.
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Free Archetype can make it easier to realize some concepts, which reduces the burden on players to "only" pick class feats/dedications that are "core" to the character. Or it allows the player to have the character meet expectations a bit earlier. It can also be limited to a list of thematically "appropriate" archetypes as a way to more tightly integrate characters to a given campaign.
That said, there are some character concepts that are nearly impossible to realize in PF2 without using Free Archetype. For example, an "archmage" that can cast 8th+ level spells in all four traditions (one possibility).
You might be able to come close with Magaambyan Attendant Dedication (Cascade Bearer), Halcyon Speaker Dedication, Cascade Bearer's Spellcasting, Halcyon Spellcasting Initiate, Flexible Halcyon Spellcasting, Halcyon Spellcasting Adept, and Halcyon Spellcasting Sage; however, the Magaambyan Attendant/Halcyon Speaker will only gain up to 7th level halcyon spells and will only have three halcyon spells known (chosen from arcane, divine, occult, and primal) for 1st to 6th level spells and two 7th level instead of six (two each from the multiclass dedications of 1st to 6th) or three (for 7th and 8th). The Dualistic Synergy/Fulminating Spell/Synergistic Spell chain is also pretty nice, which puts you in a tough choice because you don't have enough 10th to 20th level class feats to be able to take them in addition to Cascade Bearer's Spellcasting and Flexible Halcyon Spellcasting and still gain 7th level halcyon spells: Cascade Bearer's Spellcasting (10th), Halcyon Spellcasting Initiate (10th), Flexible Halcyon Spellcasting (12th), Halcyon Spellcasting Adept (14th), Fulminating Synergy (16th), Halcyon Spellcasting Sage (18th), and Synergistic Spell (20th) is seven feats for only six feat choices available.
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Uh, I'm speaking from experience, with my actual group that includes some pretty heavy optimizers, and what they could handle before and after.Also none of this matters, because the accuracy of the encounter building rules under free archetype and without free archetype is the same, so even if it did add power, that power is essentially negligible.
It makes it easier to optimize, but it doesn't actually raise the ceiling on the actual game any.
That's what the raw says but, unfortunately,far from being true.
Consider that even without free archetype, a moderate use of companions would easily affect the combat.
And this could also be said about the "rules" For additional players, which doesn't work very well when it comes to offer a balanced encounter ( it becomes more of a stomp fiesta).
Then your optimizers aren't particularly good.
I've been going over Free Archetype optimizing possibilities and every group could have the following:
1. Inspire Courage, Inspire Heroics, and synesthesia as you can add on a bard MC to every group.
2. Every group could have multiple healers adding huge healing power to the group so that anyone could heal another class with some kind of healing power added on.
3. Every class weakness could be eliminated by adding focus options and actions not normally available.
If you take Free Archetype with a focus on optimization absent concepts and you can add massive casting power to the group, buffing, debuffing, focus powers, and the like.
Already started looking at it from a pure optimization standpoint where you make something like a group of fighters, every single one with some kind of caster archetype tacked on.
You'll never be without Champion's Reaction if you optimize. Everyone could find some way to tack on Champion's Reaction with a Free Archetype.
People who truly know how to optimize can focus on taking the very best classes and class abilities from an archetype and making a party with zero weaknesses. You could make parties easily with two characters taking Champion's Reaction, one with bard buffing, and another with some healing caster so that say a wizard could always cast his attack spells while also having access to heals and buffing spells that don't worry about casting proficiency.
Every single character gets full MC casting with no hard choices between say that lvl 18 feat and that Master level casting on their character.
Sorry, optimizers can mostly assuredly break PF2 and make this game mostly trivial optimizing with Free Archetype. The offensive boosts may not break the game, but the defensive and healing power and pure versatility within the group is enormously enhanced if using Free Archetype to enhance a group of characters.
Someone like Exocist who optimizes his entire group as a team could go crazy optimizing a group with Free Archetype coordinate which character will guarantee their bard status bonus, extra healing, additional Champion reactions and the like. That is optimizing without any regard for concept, just pure taking the most powerful options from archetypes.
It ends up like 5E where sure, the math is still Bounded Accuracy, but you get to take the best abilities of certain high value classes like Champion or Bard. Then someone playing those classes purely ends up going, "This other player is using my best powers, while doing way more damage and having way more fun I am."
Hm. Looking at things from the character's standpoint, how many adventurers in Golarion are going to sit around trying to figure out how to optimize their builds?
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Well, I think we've found the answer to the OP's why/why not. :)
Usage correlates most strongly with how much of a power differential one perceives, with campaign flavor, party needs, feel of heroism, niche protection, & ease of builds also being factors.
If one sees the differential as negligible, the benefits outweigh that and one can account for the negatives (if one sees any). And if one sees the differential as meaningful, the benefits need special circumstances to validate them.
Meanwhile, posters argue over whether the differential is meaningful, yet that seems more a matter of one's parameters & aesthetics, a.k.a. subjective viewpoints.
What surprises me is how prevalent this optional rule is, especially since it's freebies in a well-tuned system. I guess I could have predicted this sort of mechanism's popularity back in the playtest given the split on feedback. Hmm.
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I feel like the most common reaction to running Free Archetype is that players will read a new archetype, say "oh this is neat" but resent the calculus of "okay, how do I balance the stuff I want from the archetype versus the stuff I want from my class."
Like you read Staff Acrobat, and think "that's neat, I want to be someone who fights with sticks" and you don't have to go through the PITA of figuring out which monk feats are essential and which aren't.
Yeah the second I have a party that optimises to take the best options all the time with free archetype without any concern for character concept or game concept is the day I'm slapping the nerfhammer down on this variant.
So far hasn't happened though.
Also as a side note for beastmaster, as a DM whenever someone has an AC or familiar, I demand they give them a name and a story. And I roleplay their adorable pet cuddles and kisses and quirks.
Then I brutally kill them in front of your eyes.
My players are now warry of taking beastmaster just cause ^^ I call it john wicking.
It would brutally boring optimizing each time as it would be nearly the same choices each time given how optimization works. But it is clear that a character with Free Archetype is better in the same way that a 5E character with multiclassing is better. You get to cherry pick certain of the best abilities off high value classes from an archetype.
I can see the Free Archetype being used for something like this upcoming AP to allow people to become members of the magic school in it as those archetypes are feat intensive. Or if everyone is supposed to be a Hell Knight. If you're implementing a character concept for a group.
As far as always playing with Free Archetype, you're playing a game with elevated power and options that allows the elimination of every weakness of every class if combined in an optimal way. You're giving out 10 extra feats that can be taken from a high value archetype like Bard or add up to Master Casting with full Breadth.
I've specced out multiclass casters and bards, there are very hard choices to make in comparable feats at lvl 12 and 18. You don't have to make any of those hard choices with Free Archetype. You get to take the most optimal lvl 12 and 18 feats in your class, while also getting Master Casting and all that brings with it as all as the Breadth feat.
Free Archetype is a power up that boosts versatility, spell power, and all that comes with it substantially.
I don't think that is as true as it used to be, since it only takes 8-12 hours of player to get through each level, most groups manage that much play time in a month, and there's no systematic break-down happening as level increases like there used to be.
Now bear in mind that most campaigns end by level 12 or less (2 years of play usually).
12 seems about right to me: in my experience, games start to drop off once you hit double digits and the higher you go from there the more likely it id to end. It's quite rare for me to see 17+ in a game [unless we started much higher in level].
EDIT: I HAVE seen games last a bit longer the last year, but I attribute that to covid and people being home inside with time on their hands and not something particular to PF2.
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Now bear in mind that most campaigns end by level 12 or less (2 years of play usually).I don't think that is as true as it used to be, since it only takes 8-12 hours of player to get through each level, most groups manage that much play time in a month, and there's no systematic break-down happening as level increases like there used to be.
Yes, but it is also true that not all campaigns are Adventure Path, which go from levels 1 through 20. Character optimization for an Adventure Path is different than it is for a Standalone Adventure or for Pathfinder Society Organized Play.
I doubt people could get up as many shenanigans in a Plaugestone campaign, compared to Night of the Gray Death or Fists of the Ruby Phoenix.
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I don't think that is as true as it used to be, since it only takes 8-12 hours of player to get through each level, most groups manage that much play time in a month, and there's no systematic break-down happening as level increases like there used to be.
Now bear in mind that most campaigns end by level 12 or less (2 years of play usually).So after 1 year of solid playing, you will get to level 12. While most of the people I know take slightly longer since 12 hours per level is at the low end, it still means that it takes a full year for your concept to come on line and differentiation to happen. The overwhelming complaint I hear about PF2 is that the characters are slow to differentiate and become interesting. That is why I am among the last of my group that is still pushing PF2
In terms of game-breaking power creep ... Inspire Heroics reqs level 16), level 5 spells such as synthesia reqs level 14. If you think that having those at level 16 are game breaking, well...
Synesthesia is always good.
It's not about game-breaking. It's like multiclassing in 5E. You take classes that are weak and eliminate all weaknesses as an optimizer.
Everyone can have heavy armor.
All groups have inspire courage.
All groups have Champion's Reaction.
Everyone can heal or cast a spell.
You can make a wizard with more spellcasting in heavy armor with Champion's Reaction while taking the best wizard feats and telling us the wizard class is fine while you're talking from a perspective of always have 10 extra feats and an archetype.
MCing in 5E doesn't break the math of the game. What it does do is is allow character's to mix and match class features to create these characters that step on other class's making it suboptimal to play a straight class. A wizard with paladin smite in 5E is much better than a straight wizard or a straight paladin because he can cast a lot of spells and do good melee damage.
In PF2 a bard with Champion's Reaction is better because he can Inspire Courage and use his reaction to block damage with.
Free Archetype makes it incredibly easy to combine high value features to make sure you always have the best possible of both worlds for power.
Everyone that has seen a Champion in group play knows that the base reaction is the strongest ability they get. Blocking level +2 damage from an attack while also getting some rider is incredibly powerful. With free archetype why not have it on a couple of characters, really mess that boss creature up.
In games like PF2 and 5E effective versatility is optimization unlike PF1 where focused specialization was optimization. Free Archetype is effective versatility for no cost.
Wow- and people still play with you as a GM? I remember that I had a GM like that once (wanted us to "really value" the things you had - to the point of stripping your character naked every couple of levels so you had to "play the character and not the items"). Our group didn't last long. It would be easier just to ban the archetype but probably not as muchYeah the second I have a party that optimises to take the best options all the time with free archetype without any concern for character concept or game concept is the day I'm slapping the nerfhammer down on this variant.
So far hasn't happened though.
Also as a side note for beastmaster, as a DM whenever someone has an AC or familiar, I demand they give them a name and a story. And I roleplay their adorable pet cuddles and kisses and quirks.
Then I brutally kill them in front of your eyes.
My players are now warry of taking beastmaster just cause ^^ I call it john wicking.
I actually have too many games running, its becoming a problem, people seem to like them!