spells per day

[stormborn125]

okay so gestalt rules but level 20 sorcerer level 10 technomancer how do i calculate the +9 levels for spells per day?

[Firebug]

Short answer: You use the Sorcerer 20 line, because there isn't anything higher on the chart.

Longer answer: Where are you getting the Gestalt rules from? It doesn't officially exist in Pathfinder, so the closest I can find are from 3.5. There are a number of caveats, specifically "Class features that two classes share (such as uncanny dodge) accrue at the rate of the faster class." And it could be argued that the spellcasting class feature is shared between them (because Technomancer advances 9/10 as if it were Sorcerer in this case). So, you don't gain spellcasting advancements from Technomancer because Sorcerer advances faster. Basically the extra +1 arcane spellcasting wasted.

[stormborn125]

Firebug wrote:

"Class features that two classes share (such as uncanny dodge) accrue at the rate of the faster class."

yes that is my understanding of gestalt as well, but if you have two spell casting classes the spells are still seperate, and in this case it's actively augmenting another class so I'm wondering how that would work, would it use 20+ level rules? "Every odd-numbered level, a spellcaster gains access to a new level of spell one above his previous maximum level, gaining one spell slot in that new level." or what?

[Taja the Barbarian]

As mentioned previously, there are no Gestalt rules: At best, there are vague suggestions for gestalt characters from D&D3.5, but each GM will have to decide how exactly it works for their game.

Personally, I think you should separate your classes into two separate 'stacks' (which I will call 'left' and 'right') and have no interaction between the two: In play, you take the better of the 'Left' stack or the 'Right' stack for all class feature, but never combine them. As such, you can't get a full BAB by combining two half-BAB classes (like Wizard 20 + Fighter 1 / Sorcerer 19), 20d6 sneak attack by combining Rogue 20 + Fighter 1 / Vivisectionist 19, or level 29 spell casting from your example.

Again, that's just my personal interpretation, but there are no official rules in this area (as is the way with most 'options').

EDIT: Flagged this thread to be moved to a more appropriate forum (maybe 'Homebrew' or 'General Discussion') since it isn't about an actual PF1e rule.

[avr]

Suppose at 12th level you're going to sorcerer 12 on one side of the gestalt, and technomancer 2 on the other side. Sorcerer 12 is giving you +1 level of arcane spellcasting and so is technomancer 2. This is the same benefit, gestalt gives you the best of the two sides (not the sum) and the gestalt therefore gives you just +1 level of arcane spellcasting. Not +2. Continue this to level 20 and you will have sorcerer 20 spellcasting at level 20, no more, no less.

[stormborn125]

avr wrote:

Suppose at 12th level you're going to sorcerer 12 on one side of the gestalt, and technomancer 2 on the other side. Sorcerer 12 is giving you +1 level of arcane spellcasting and so is technomancer 2. This is the same benefit, gestalt gives you the best of the two sides (not the sum) and the gestalt therefore gives you just +1 level of arcane spellcasting. Not +2. Continue this to level 20 and you will have sorcerer 20 spellcasting at level 20, no more, no less.

that is certainly one way to interpret it but Prestige classes seem to be augments calculated after base classes at least in default rulings, which gestalt is not so I'm wondering how this carries so far most are saying doesn't work so that may very well be the case

[Valandil Ancalime]

stormborn125 wrote:

okay so gestalt rules but level 20 sorcerer level 10 technomancer how do i calculate the +9 levels for spells per day?

That is not a possible combination. Technomancer is a Prestige class, and you can't gestalt the same class(sor) to get to the point where you can start taking Tech levels. The given combination would be a 20th level character and is missing 10 levels in a base class. The easiest way to gestalt is do it level by level starting at 1.

IMO it should be similar to Boon Companion, "The abilities of your animal companion or familiar are calculated as though your class were 4 levels higher, to a maximum effective druid level equal to your character level." You can't combine spellcasting and exceed your character level.

[ShadowcatX]

stormborn125 wrote:

avr wrote:

Suppose at 12th level you're going to sorcerer 12 on one side of the gestalt, and technomancer 2 on the other side. Sorcerer 12 is giving you +1 level of arcane spellcasting and so is technomancer 2. This is the same benefit, gestalt gives you the best of the two sides (not the sum) and the gestalt therefore gives you just +1 level of arcane spellcasting. Not +2. Continue this to level 20 and you will have sorcerer 20 spellcasting at level 20, no more, no less.

that is certainly one way to interpret it but Prestige classes seem to be augments calculated after base classes at least in default rulings, which gestalt is not so I'm wondering how this carries so far most are saying doesn't work so that may very well be the case

There is no "augments calculated". When you level up you apply everything you gain at level up right then and add it to the character. AVR is correct.

[Mysterious Stranger]

The gestalt rules also prohibit prestige classes that combine classes. It specifically calls out arcane trickster, eldritch knight and mystic theurge as not being available. This was done specifically to avoid this type of scenario. That is a pretty good indication that what you are trying does not work.

[JiaYou]

stormborn125 wrote:

avr wrote:

Suppose at 12th level you're going to sorcerer 12 on one side of the gestalt, and technomancer 2 on the other side. Sorcerer 12 is giving you +1 level of arcane spellcasting and so is technomancer 2. This is the same benefit, gestalt gives you the best of the two sides (not the sum) and the gestalt therefore gives you just +1 level of arcane spellcasting. Not +2. Continue this to level 20 and you will have sorcerer 20 spellcasting at level 20, no more, no less.

that is certainly one way to interpret it but Prestige classes seem to be augments calculated after base classes at least in default rulings, which gestalt is not so I'm wondering how this carries so far most are saying doesn't work so that may very well be the case

Exactly, since prestige classes are augments to base classes it doesn't make sense to gestalt a prestige class with the class that the prestige class advances itself. The wording of spellcasters is essentially "as you level up, you gain spells known and spells you can cast per day." However, a spellcasting prestige class says, "When a new arcane trickster/eldritch knight/etc level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if she had also gained a level in a spellcasting class she belonged to before adding the prestige class."

So it's exactly as avr said. Both are giving you the same extra benefits as if you gained a level in that same spellcasting class, and thus gestalt only takes the "better" of the two.

That being said, your original idea is missing ten levels anyway.

You could do Sorcerer 10//any other class 10, and then for the last 10 levels do Technomancer 10//any other class 10.

[Ryze Kuja]

If you're progressing Sorcerer and Technomancer at the same time, then Technomancer would have to progress a different class other than your Sorcerer (because you wouldn't gain any benefit, as the others have rightly pointed out). Such as, if you're level 10 and went Sorcerer10/Wizard10 and then decided to start taking Technomancer levels, you would need to pick either Sorcerer or Wizard to progress the spellcasting and gain the benefit you're looking for. So you could go Sorcerer11 // Wizard10+TM1, then Sorcerer12 // Wiz10+TM2, etc., and the TM levels would progress your Wizard class with no issues.

So lets say you went Fighter10/Sorc10 and wanted to take TM levels. You would need to progress it as Fighter11/Sorc10+TM1, then Fighter12/Sorc10+TM2, etc. And you would calculate your spells as if you had 12 levels of Sorcerer, but -1 level because you lose a level of spell progression on your first level of TM.

[Firebug]

Extending the Fighter example, you would probably want to have 1 level where you have both Sorcerer and Technomancer, as TM doesn't give +1 arcane casting at the first level. You could mix in Evangelist* as well, since it has the same issue of not progressing the previous class at 1st.

So like Fighter 1-9/Technomancer 1/Fighter 10-19 | Sorcerer 1-10/Technomancer 2-10/Sorcerer 11

Of course, Technomancer doesn't get the bloodline powers, so X 1-10/Technomancer 1-10 | Sorcerer 20 does has some advantages... just not in raw spellcasting.

Evangelist*:

Fighter(or whatever else) 1-5 | Sorcerer 1-5
Evangelist(Sorcerer-aligned) 1 | Sorcerer 6
Technomancer 1 | Evangelist 2(Sorcerer CL 7, effective Sorcerer 7)
Fighter 6-14 | Technomancer 2-10 (Sorcerer CL 16, effective Sorcerer 7)
Fighter 15-18 | Evangelist 3-6 (Sorcerer CL 20, effective Sorcerer 11)

[VoodistMonk]

I see what you tried to do there... and no.

I get that there aren't any official rules for gestalt, so it will vary table to table... but I didn't allow prestige classes at all in my gestalt. I gave people the option of ending both classes whilst taking prestige class levels, but they had to pick up both classes at the end of it. I don't allow multiclassing or VMC inside my gestalts, either.

You get two full classes, that should probably be good enough without dipping or multiclassing. If you can't make just about any concept work with two complete classes, that's your fault.

I also don't allow certain spellcasting options...

9th level casters cannot gestalt with other spellcasters, period.

Two 6th level casters cannot be gestalted unless one side is using Alchemy... which can make for some awesome combinations.

6th level casters can be gestalt with 4th level castere, and this combination is highly encouraged.

Two 4th level casters can be gestalted, and is also encouraged.

You can easily come out with full BAB, all good saves, 9th level casting, and 6+Int skills... I have absolutely no pity and suffer no fools when it comes to gestalt. Don't get me wrong, though, I love gestalt. I think you can make some really beautiful combinations that paint a picture as class features come together. You can tell a story with nothing more than level dependent abilities coming online adding to and complimenting other features in certain ways. I think everyone should play PF1 gestalt at least once. PF1 is perfectly complex and bloated enough to provide everyone with something they can use and enjoy...