How would you improve Double Tap?

[CorvusMask]

So I'm really frustrated with Double Tap because its basically trap option: you get better result with same amount of feats just by getting long arm proficiency and specialization instead. For trying to specialize in small arms all you get is "you spend twice ammo for making bit more damage and this attack ignores all special properties and buffs you could add from class" when you would still deal much more damage with just shooting once with rifle even without buffs.

I can think of two main ways to buff Double Tap, but only second one is actually worthwhile.

1) the least most minor change you could do to this is at least allowing special properties apply as well as "move action to boost damage/accuracy". Like I don't think it would help small arms comparable to long arms, but it would at least make it better to be allowed to boost this or use it in aoe :p

2) if intent of the feat is "you shoot twice at single target to do more damage"(hence why feat removes all line/blast/etc properties), then how about you just let character roll attack roll twice without full attack penalty with standard action? That way its still good without even needing to have full level to damage bonus, two small arm hits do much less damage than two long arm hits, so it would essentially be "I specialize in small arms because I want to be really accurate when I shoot twice" and its restricted by having to use both attacks to same target.

That second option could be altered further to make it weaker(with stuff like "you roll twice, but if first one misses both miss or even having it just be "you do full attack with standard action with small arms with normal penalties") or stronger (like removing all restrictions, adding full level to damage and shooting twice with +1 bonus as standard), could see arguments to both ways, but I honestly think that "standard action to full attack without penalties and getting full level damage boost" would actually be best option to go with. Because I checked out average damage math and uh... Yeah

I do think it tells a lot how even with strongest possible buff to double tap, the damage still wouldn't make it outperform operative trick attack or long arms. In case of best possible small arm paragon glove needler pistol, single attack with full level to damage would have 59 average damage compared to long arm best case scenario supreme needler rifle with single attack having average of 76 damage, operative with half to level to damage and same needler pistol would have average of 94 damage. So one hits from small arm(with full level to damage) would out damage single hit from rifle, two hits would out damage operative, but long arm with two hits would still out damage both of them.

...Sooo basically, small arms are damage wise so weak that giving them "full level damage boost full attack as standard without penalties" would only make them on same level as the other two alternatives by virtue of being more accurate than long arms and having small chance of critting twice compared to operative critting once <_<; Its in a way kinda impressive how underwhelming small arms are.

[Taran Tatsuuchi]

I think I saw a thought sonewhere, someone considering just giving them level to damage for specilization, and dropping operative dice down one size.

The dice change would be an average of 1 damage per die, which is about what they are getting from the change to full level spec on small arms and operative melee...

Offhand, I don't know what other balance concerns would need to be consisered.

[Metaphysician]

I would "improve" Double Tap by generally enforcing and emphasizing the downsides of using a long arm, versus the upsides of using a pistol: concealability, weight, cost, and so on. Especially for classes where the character should probably be doing something else than shooting during the really important combat rounds, anyway. *cough*

That said, I am sympathetic to the "just have all weapons use the standard specialization damage, along with a mild debuff to operative attack" idea. Its a mild buff to lighter weapons that also significantly simplifies play, since you don't need to track which weapon type gets which bonus to damage.

[WatersLethe]

Double tap's bonus to hit is also pretty valuable though.

Weapon Focus is essentially a must-pick for anyone planning on shooting any type of gun, since accuracy is so hard to get, but especially since it scales better for low BAB classes.

So the comparison is closer to 1 feat (Double Tap) vs 2 feats (longarm proficiency, versatile specialization).

For someone who only shoots as a seconday option, it's not too bad.

[Zwordsman]

To Hit is pretty nice to stack up.
I'd still have it deal 1 set of damage, but I'd have them roll the attack twice and take the better. That really doesn't fit the aesthetic of it though.

Ultimately though I'd actually change it up. its not Double shot. its Aimed Shot. No specific action, just the same action used to attack with the weapon. Youget the bonus to hit, extra damage, but you only use one shot. Its simply taking a pause to aim better for your small arm. I'd make it so you get more bang for your buck; while I'd leave longarms to be the spam shooting.

So it would work with full attacks and the like. It wouldn't be as strong nor as much distance. It would work with unwieldly things, it would work with the 1/shot sort of things like hand cannon. It basically works with all small arms but makes them better-even the ones with that multi-hit get a bonus thing. But due to the inherent differences long arms are always better mechanically. But this makes it so you wont' feel it as hard outside of longer range combat. So for 1 feat you can have someone with small arms who is pretty competent.

I would agree the biggest issue is there isn't much mechanical advantage outside of profiencies and weight not to get long arm. Since rarely does it come up how awkward it can be in a few select situations and thohs situations don't come up too often (how often are you crawling through small tunnels).

I think its nice for folks who have other uses.
(short edit). The main issue I have with it is that it denies so much. Does it work with biohackers? maybe. but also maybe only if you spend twice the hacks to do it. Is a good example. Much less the various odd smal arms that are nice to have.

[CorvusMask]

WatersLethe wrote:

Double tap's bonus to hit is also pretty valuable though.

Weapon Focus is essentially a must-pick for anyone planning on shooting any type of gun, since accuracy is so hard to get, but especially since it scales better for low BAB classes.

So the comparison is closer to 1 feat (Double Tap) vs 2 feats (longarm proficiency, versatile specialization).

For someone who only shoots as a seconday option, it's not too bad.

Would still be better to just get weapon focus for longarm as well though <_<

Like at level 20 you sure you get +10 extra damage on small arm, its still doesn't make average damage of weapon anywhere close to other options.

(note: I do agree on other thread that small arms do still deal enough damage to stay relevant at high levels, just that there is no good argument for why you wouldn't just invest in long arms since they just straight up do more damage. I do think idea of small arm investment being more about "shooting fast and accurate instead of doing more damage" has potential though)

[Squiggit]

Conceptually, it feels weird to me for a pistol to be the option you'd pick for accuracy over a rifle.

I think making double tap more appealing has to start with just making small arms more appealing... they should just get full spec out the gate. They'd still be worse for raw damage, but not so much worse that you see almost everyone upgrading to long arms.

As for double tap itself, I like the idea of rolling twice. Or maybe actually attacking twice but with some heavy caveats. +1 to hit doesn't feel very much like 'firing off two shots in quick succession' either way.