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When you succeed at an Athletics check to Disarm, the circumstance bonus and penalty from Disarm last until the end of your next turn, instead of until the beginning of the target's next turn. The target can use an Interact action to adjust their grip and remove this effect. If your swashbuckler's style is gymnast and you succeed at your Athletics check to Disarm a foe, you gain panache.
This makes Disarm a much better action, locking it behind a feat I could understand, but behind a specific class feat it feels too much.
Of course taking it away from Swash' would require giving it something else, maybe an even better disarm like "on a success the target can't use attack reactions with that weapon until the start of its next turn" or something.It's just something I noticed while looking up Swashbuckler with a new player.
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Yeah, I had already house ruldf it to work this way before the APG came out.
Did it make it too powerful ? Or just useful enough to be a viable option next to grapple, shove and trip ?
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Did it make it too powerful ? Or just useful enough to be a viable option next to grapple, shove and trip ?
It still didn't get used very much to be honest, so I don't think it is too powerful, but I also have limited data. TBH once people realize how unlikely a Disarm action is to actually disarm someone, they are less likely to use it, and not all enemies can be disarmed in the first place.
I also house-ruled it this way, and it still never seemed much better than just tripping grabbing, etc.
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TBH once people realize how unlikely a Disarm action is to actually disarm someone, they are less likely to use it
I think that was actually the intent. Permanently Disarming a character that relies on their weapon for combat is way too strong. It is effectively a one-hit KO*.
Being able to do it once in a while - especially if it takes multiple characters to be able to succeed - that feels about right.
Being a staple tactic for a single character to reliably do feels like it would make that character too much better than other characters.
* Yes, the character could pull out another weapon. For an NPC they could even pull out another weapon that has the same (or at least equivalent) runes and such. For player characters, that is a bit more difficult.
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Maybe they should have left it out tbh.
An ability that can potentially win a fight if you crit against certain opponents, but has no effect against other types of enemies and does almost nothing if you don't crit feels really specific and really swingy for a game that's tried to walk that back for the most part.
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Maybe they should have left it out tbh.
An ability that can potentially win a fight if you crit against certain opponents, but has no effect against other types of enemies and does almost nothing if you don't crit feels really specific and really swingy for a game that's tried to walk that back for the most part.
Can't a disarmed creature just pick the weapon back up again? It's definitely stronger than say, prone from trip but not that much stronger. I think crit success for a proper disarm is pretty fair. I also think the Success result is definitely too weak, though.
It probably is fair to just make Disarming Flair the baseline effect... compared to tripping it's still a slightly weaker success (penalty to hit but not to AC) but with a bigger upside on a critical success.
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Maybe they should have left it out tbh.
An ability that can potentially win a fight if you crit against certain opponents, but has no effect against other types of enemies and does almost nothing if you don't crit feels really specific and really swingy for a game that's tried to walk that back for the most part.
Can't a disarmed creature just pick the weapon back up again? It's definitely stronger than say, prone from trip but not that much stronger. I think crit success for a proper disarm is pretty fair. I also think the Success result is definitely too weak, though.
It probably is fair to just make Disarming Flair the baseline effect... compared to tripping it's still a slightly weaker success (penalty to hit but not to AC) but with a bigger upside on a critical success.
If enemies have actions between the disarming and the turn of the disarmed, they can just scoop it up.
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They probably left it in so people didn’t end up houseruling it in and making it remove weapons on a success, then having to houserule in weapon cords/locked gauntlets.
I agree with this.
It probably is fair to just make Disarming Flair the baseline effect
I agree with this too. Not an overpowered houserule.
It does have the problem of removing a class feat from Swashbuckler - which was also mentioned earlier in thread. Perhaps a new class feat where if the Swashbuckler crit success the disarm, then they can fling the weapon to a location of their choice instead of just having it drop in the enemy's space.
If enemies have actions between the disarming and the turn of the disarmed, they can just scoop it up.
Yes. Which is why it feels cool to pull it off. It takes a good majority of the party coordinating on disarming an enemy in order to pull off the stunt.
Though if you have a free hand and an action left, you can pick up the weapon too.
Due to the limitations to 'Disarm', which only works on armed opponents and even on them is either too good or too bad I think disarming should not exist as its own action but rather be part of a broader action that could be used on armed and unarmed opponents alike, hampering their attack capabilities. On this new action disarming of armed opponents could still happen if the respective result is reached, however it would also be effective versus unarmed opponents, something along "if the opponent is armed, he is disarmed, if he is holding an object he is dropping said object, otherwise he is slowed 1", you get the idea.
Disarm will forever be weak in PF2e because of the Fundamental Runes.
Run a game with Automatic Bonus Progression and change the effect of the maneuver to actually disarm on a success and it won't be a huge deal anymore, since the target can still pick up a spare weapon and not suffer as it would in the normal system.
Imagine casting a "Ray of Enfeeblement" that instead of applying -1/-2 damage to damage it actually reduced the damage from 4dX to 1dX damage? That would make it one of the best spells in the game for sure. Even the 2dX->1dX reduction would be great, which comes online by level 4. That's basically what Disarm can be in a fight when the rare occasion happens and you have an weaponless enemy.
I just wish the success was more attractive than it currently is. If it were like the "off-kilter" condition from Starfinder, it would have a place as a solid choice.
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Ubertron so basically merge the grappling and disarm maneuvers to be more realistic and balanced?
Not necessarily by merging, however the current disarm does not seem very balanced versus the other options (nor can it be). Size restrictions aside Grapple, Trip and Shove work against almost every opppnent, Disarm doesn't. Grapple, Trip and Shove all have their unique, but universal applications, Disarm doesn't.
With Grapple you can hinder almost any enemies movement and defense, making them flat-footed or worse in the process, as well as costing them actions to break free. With Shove you can manpulate almost any enemies positioning (doorways, hazards etc). With Trip you can make almost any enemy easier to hit in melee, cost him an action to stand while possibly provoking AoO.
So in order to be on the same level as the above any "Disarm" activity also need to be universal (in regards to affected targets) as well as unique in application and duration, e.g. hindering enemy attack capacity at least somewhat into his next turn. If the skill use is defined too narrow a application you will eventually run into the exact issues Disarm currently has, e.g. its critical success effect potentially being too good, while the regular success effect probably being too weak.
Foil ◆
[Attack]
Requirements You have at least one hand free. The target can’t be more than one size larger than you.
In a dazzling display of skill you hamper your enemies offensive efforts. Attempt an Athletics check against the target’s Reflex DC.
Critical Success: You knock an item out of the target's grasp. It falls to the ground in the target's space. Alternatively the target is Slowed 1, you decide.
Success You distract your enemy and weaken his resolve to attack. The target takes a –2 circumstance penalty to its next attack. At a maximum this effect lasts until the start of your next turn.
Critical Failure You lose your balance and become flat-footed until the start of your next turn.
Don't nail me on the exact effects or durations (success could even be for a full round), however the intention is that while Trip, Grapple and Shove universally hinder movement, positioning or defense, any Disarm/Foil actions and success results to universally hinder enemy offense.