So can someone else me choose between these 2 when it comes to a base for a rookie cleric build?


Advice

Silver Crusade

Basically the idea is to make a character that functions like your typical cleric but is generally far more amaturish.

The choices are between the Cloistered Cleric/Evangelist Prestige class and the Living Grimoire/Preacher.

And for the sake of argument, i would like to ignore the whole 6th level caster vs 9th level caster angle as IMO most games never get to the point where that becomes significantly relevant.

Grand Lodge

Don't go cleric on a rookie.
Spontaneous casters like Oracle is much better and has much more flavor to build a character around.
The most important feature of the cleric is which deity you choose because that will impact the characters alignment, values and goals.
But most people choose deity after which domains they grant and then try to make a personality which they will find fun to play - This is the most difficult part when creating a cleric and most people fail this and end up playing a generic buff/healer/frontliner who visit a temple once a while.

Silver Crusade

*Khan* wrote:

Don't go cleric on a rookie.

Spontaneous casters like Oracle is much better and has much more flavor to build a character around.
The most important feature of the cleric is which deity you choose because that will impact the characters alignment, values and goals.
But most people choose deity after which domains they grant and then try to make a personality which they will find fun to play - This is the most difficult part when creating a cleric and most people fail this and end up playing a generic buff/healer/frontliner who visit a temple once a while.

I meant more in terms of rp an amateur cleric that probably resides in a local village that might not have the oomph formally trained clerics do

Grand Lodge

Sorry misunderstood your headline.
Both Cloistered Cleric and Living Grimoire Inquisitor are formally schooled and educated - which is not what you are looking for.

A Stoic Caregiver cleric would be a better match i think.
I don't think the inquisitor class is much suited to reside in one little village - but it will depend on the deity you choose.


In the Eberron campaign setting the amateur who is genuinely gifted by their god is the cleric, the formally trained but not so gifted one is likely to be some variety of NPC class. Dunno about Golarion.

Regardless, if you want something a little distinct from the expected cleric I think the living grimoire is that. Using your holy book as a weapon says 'I am different!' quite loudly.


I feel like Clerics can support the theme of ‘freshly minted seminary graduate’ better; Cloistered Cleric is fine for that narrow purpose, but it’s a very weak archetype. Maybe Scroll Scholar?

My personal perception of Inquisitors is that they are all grizzled, intimidating, well traveled veterans of their faiths.

Silver Crusade

Lelomenia wrote:

I feel like Clerics can support the theme of ‘freshly minted seminary graduate’ better; Cloistered Cleric is fine for that narrow purpose, but it’s a very weak archetype. Maybe Scroll Scholar?

My personal perception of Inquisitors is that they are all grizzled, intimidating, well traveled veterans of their faiths.

Thats fine I kinda want it to be on the weaker side so it won't feel overbearing compared to other rookie class ideas I have in mind


Inquisitors get stern gaze which gives them a scaling bonus to both intimidate and sense motive. They also gain track at second level. They also have a lot of skills that are useful for subterfuges and intrigue as class skills. There is nothing that prevents you from ignoring those, but it seems to be a waste to ignore a lot of the strengths of a class. The inquisitors spell list also contains a lot of spells to back up this type of stuff. To me the inquisitor does not seem to be well suited for what you want.

The cloistered cleric gets a scaling bonus to all knowledge skills. He is well educated but with little real world experience. If you are looking to play a naïve character this would probably be a better choice. Basically you are the wonder kid who just graduated and is finding out that the world is a lot bigger and more dangerous then his training prepared him for.


Out of the options provided, I think the Living Grimoire-Preacher would be the most fun.

Nothing against Clerics, I just think it helps to go all in when making a Cleric. Since their deity is such a big part of the flavor and mechanics of being a Cleric, I like to pick a deity whom offers deific boons that align with the flavor I am trying to achieve.

My personal favorite is Divine Paragon Cleric 5/Evangelist 10... this gives you six boons by level 15... all 3 Evangelist boons, and all 3 of either Exalted or Sentinel boons (your choice).

This sounds like a zealot monster, but I think it just glues you to your faith. There's something about the way that particular combination flows.


So, I'm having trouble understanding what you're looking for MGD. You want a PC with a "rookie" feel, someone who 'resides in a local village" and such. I feel like, in my own interpretation, you're looking for a divine spellcaster who doesn't have a lot of field experience and their build then reflects a kind of naivete.

So the choices you give us are 4 archetypes: a cleric with lots of knowledges and a ranged aid another, a dynamic firebrand/public speaker, a PC that beats people up with their book, or a dynamic firebrand/public speaker. Or maybe we just have 2 choices, combining the 2 cleric archetypes or the 2 inquisitor archetypes.

If that's the case... how are either of these a "rookie" in any other sense than they're level 1? I guess what I'm getting at is - what if the "cloistered cleric" maxes Str, takes the race human, takes Power Attack and Furious Focus and explains in their backstory that they were a former city guard who became a combat medic adjunct to a military college where they've been training primarily for melee combat for years?

On the other hand, what if you took a generic cleric but you play a halfling and take Pass for Human as your one feat, you specify you only carry a club, and your 2 highest stats are Int and Cha? You take Disguise through a Trait and slap a rank in it, making yourself look like a human kid prodigy all the time. Now Doogie Cleric here is not combat ready, he RP's like a naïve kid and he definitely feels like a "rookie" but he's got full divine spellcasting.

I guess my point is... is this an RP choice or a build choice? If it's mechanical, I'd definitely say that of the options you gave us Cloistered Cleric's abilities are more like a not-so-field-ready PC, but again, I feel like there are TONS of ways to build any PC into this, mechanically.

If it's an RP choice... what do you WANT to play that you can add a rookie mentality to?

Silver Crusade

Mark Hoover 330 wrote:

So, I'm having trouble understanding what you're looking for MGD. You want a PC with a "rookie" feel, someone who 'resides in a local village" and such. I feel like, in my own interpretation, you're looking for a divine spellcaster who doesn't have a lot of field experience and their build then reflects a kind of naivete.

So the choices you give us are 4 archetypes: a cleric with lots of knowledges and a ranged aid another, a dynamic firebrand/public speaker, a PC that beats people up with their book, or a dynamic firebrand/public speaker. Or maybe we just have 2 choices, combining the 2 cleric archetypes or the 2 inquisitor archetypes.

If that's the case... how are either of these a "rookie" in any other sense than they're level 1? I guess what I'm getting at is - what if the "cloistered cleric" maxes Str, takes the race human, takes Power Attack and Furious Focus and explains in their backstory that they were a former city guard who became a combat medic adjunct to a military college where they've been training primarily for melee combat for years?

On the other hand, what if you took a generic cleric but you play a halfling and take Pass for Human as your one feat, you specify you only carry a club, and your 2 highest stats are Int and Cha? You take Disguise through a Trait and slap a rank in it, making yourself look like a human kid prodigy all the time. Now Doogie Cleric here is not combat ready, he RP's like a naïve kid and he definitely feels like a "rookie" but he's got full divine spellcasting.

I guess my point is... is this an RP choice or a build choice? If it's mechanical, I'd definitely say that of the options you gave us Cloistered Cleric's abilities are more like a not-so-field-ready PC, but again, I feel like there are TONS of ways to build any PC into this, mechanically.

If it's an RP choice... what do you WANT to play that you can add a rookie mentality to?

Its definitely more leaning towards mechanical. Anybody can RP a character, but i want that feel to be apparent in gameplay


Well, again, I'd vote for Cloistered Cleric out of the choices you gave. However, IMO the "feel" of the class/archetype/prestige class comes from what the player puts into it, not the mechanics.

A Cloistered Cleric is obviously a PC that has spent most of their time studying books, I get that. However, there's lots of classes/archetypes that could fit the same bill. I don't feel it's the mechanics that make that happen, it's the build and character you choose to put together. If "rookie" requires mechanics around diminished spellcasting and a focus on Knowledge skills, you could play a Devilbane Priest. This PC DOES get to wear decent armor or wield the normal weapons. However, they get diminished spellcasting because of their focus on demonic knowledge. Despite their weapons and armor, this PC could be someone that just spent an inordinate amount of their training learning the secret lore of demons.

Now, on the other hand, if you made a halfling Cloistered Cleric that took the warslinger alternate race trait and Slipslinger Style as their level 1 feat, this "cloistered cleric" may in fact be a trained alchemist (PC puts 1 rank into Craft: Alchemy) who specializes in making energy damage splash weapons for the church. They studied a bunch of knowledge skills, not by "cloistered" but by spending years among crusades, talking with the holy warriors or interrogating enemies as well as in field study (PC puts ranks into Knowledges and maybe either Diplomacy or takes Intimidate through a Trait and puts a rank into that). Finally, all this exposure on the front lines gave this PC militant focus on their slingstaff and the ability to whip any ammo, including (eventually) their own scid flasks and such. Oh yeah, and they're working on siege equipment to do the same thing so...

Again, this is only my opinion, but I say the feel of the character is what the player gives it, not what the mechanics say. But also, if mechanics are important, go with the Cloistered Cleric.


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Hedge Witch?

Their flavor text seems strongly in favor of what you're looking for and their patron can easily be some higher power in the traditional sense.


Herald Caller would be my choice. It’s like a cleric without the martial training. And the summoning bits are just your deep natural connection to your god’s servants.


*Khan* wrote:

Don't go cleric on a rookie.

QFT...

On the surface the cleric appears to be a good choice for the novice, but this could not be farther from the truth

The balance between the 'base class - stat distribution - race - alignment - archetype - domain - deity', can create vastly different outcomes

As a GM, the worst cleric players I have seen have ALWAYS been noobs and the best ALWAYS been pros.... a class much like chess... quick to learn, but a lifetime to master


Malik is not a rookie. He's been playing PF for at least 4 years. As I understand it he wishes to play a character who looks like a rookie in-character; not the same thing at all.


I guess it just depends on what a rookie cleric looks like to you. Less martial training? Less caster training? Less religious training? A warpriest might fit the bill if it’s portrayed as more of a fighter who joined the clergy.


How about an Adept, the N.P.C. class?


Class and archetype are irrelevant.

Being an unpracticed anything is completely dependent on how you roleplay your character.


Lelomenia wrote:

I feel like Clerics can support the theme of ‘freshly minted seminary graduate’ better; Cloistered Cleric is fine for that narrow purpose, but it’s a very weak archetype. Maybe Scroll Scholar?

My personal perception of Inquisitors is that they are all grizzled, intimidating, well traveled veterans of their faiths.

. . . To the point that I have argued that conceptually, Inquisitor really should have been a prestige class (even though I like the Inquisitor class mechanics pretty much as they are).

To get the rookie vibe you want may be harder to do among the divine casting classes than among the arcane casting classes (like you were asking about in the other thread), without permanently shooting yourself in the foot. For instance, Cloistered Cleric could be used to do the bookish inexperienced Cleric just fine as other have posted above, but the problem is that you don't get a very good way to grow out of it. Most of the archetype's abilities are front-loaded to the 1st 4 levels, and then you suffer thereafter. (That said, the Breadth of Knowledge ability does scale and reasonably quickly becomes better than the similar but non-scaling Elf/Dwarf/Gnome feat Breadth of Experience, so you get some growth, but I don't think it's worth what the archetype gives up. I wish the archetype lessened some of the penalties or gave you something else later on to make the ongoing severe sacrifice worthwhile.)(**) So what I've come around to think is that rather than trying to start with an archetype or something, start with something like a normal Cleric, but with more Intelligence than normal (to give you room to pick up more skills, and to take advantage of not going all-flat-out to increase your spellcasting power) and figure out a build that takes quite a while to come online. And THAT combined with the other thread gave me a devious idea: Maybe Mystic Theurge is for you. Start out unfocused, advancing the 3 required levels each of Cleric(***) and Wizard(****) interleaved. Then go Mystic Theurge, and s_l_o_w_l_y climb out of the noobiness valley. Finally, when you get up to the high levels . . . Mmmmmmmmm.

(*)I know you said you don't want to be too powerful, but you shouldn't permanently shoot yourself in the foot either.

(**)In the event that you "upgrade" (cough) to Pathfinder 2nd Edition, of course that goes out the window. There, at least according to the guides, Cloistered Cleric is THE way to do Cleric unless you need to get your combat capability online fast.

(***)Don't use Cloistered Cleric for this either, because it will make your later suffering even more, because you won't even get the scaling Knowledge Skills bonus beyond level 3.

(****)I know I said in the other thread that most types of Wizard don't give the novice vibe even at low levels, but if you interleave as Cleric, Wizard, Cleric, Wizard, Cleric, Wizard before you go into Mystic Theurge, even normal Wizard will.

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