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It's pretty obvious from the damage scaling of different battle forms that striking runes aren't intended to be applied. No property runes or weapon specialization either.
Weapon specialization is basically built into the default damage of the form. You're expected to increase it by getting access to the next level of battle forms.
It's rather obvious when you compare what you get with a battle form to what someone of the same level using a weapon can do, that if you did get striking runes or property runes (or anything else) that the battle form would be much stronger.
And remember, battle forms aren't supposed to make you better than the weapon user. It's supposed to put the druid who doesn't use weapons roughly on par with the barbarian, ranger, and fighter (but not beat them).
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Disagree that there's any particularly obvious sign pointing to property runes and weapon specialization being intended not to work.
Yeah, it should really be clarified. Really, all of the confusion comes form the last sentence "Your gear is absorbed into you; the constant abilities of your gear still function, but you can’t activate any items."
What are constant abilities, and what requires activation? I can't seem to tell. Idk, hopefully I'm just missing something and someone will be able to point to a definition somewhere in the rules, but I doubt it.
Personally I think both from a balance perspective and a flavor perspective Handwraps of Mighty Blows which are absorbed wouldn't have an effect. But then... what does? What does constant abilities even mean?
P.S. I can guarantee that potency runes don't give you a plus to hit, because they give an item bonus to your roll, and you can't get an item bonus in a battle form. But everything else I can't be sure of, unfortunately.
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According to rules, the special statistics can be adjusted only by circumstance bonuses, status bonuses, and penalties. This doesn't really exclude any of the above, since they aren't really item bonuses.
The rule is "If you take on a battle form with a polymorph spell, the special statistics can be adjusted only by circumstance bonuses, status bonuses, and penalties."
Whether or not they're item bonuses is irrelevant to the point. The rule doesn't say "Can't be affected by item bonuses" it says "If you take on a battle form with a polymorph spell, the special statistics can be adjusted only by circumstance bonuses, status bonuses, and penalties."
So the series of questions is "Is this a statistic gained from the battle form?" If the answer is "yes" then we know that the only things that can modify it are "circumstance bonuses, status bonuses, and penalties". It doesn't matter what else it is, only that it isn't one of those three things.
The question with striking runes or property runes comes in with the line in most 'form' spells that say "If your unarmed attack modifier is higher, you can use it instead": this means that "If you take on a battle form with a polymorph spell, the special statistics can be adjusted only by circumstance bonuses, status bonuses, and penalties" wouldn't apply as you are specifically NOT referencing a 'special statistic' that can't be modified by an item bonus but a normal statistic that can be used "instead" of the 'special statistic' given for attack modifier.
According to rules, the special statistics can be adjusted only by circumstance bonuses, status bonuses, and penalties. This doesn't really exclude any of the above, since they aren't really item bonuses.
The rule is "If you take on a battle form with a polymorph spell, the special statistics can be adjusted only by circumstance bonuses, status bonuses, and penalties."
Whether or not they're item bonuses is irrelevant to the point. The rule doesn't say "Can't be affected by item bonuses" it says "If you take on a battle form with a polymorph spell, the special statistics can be adjusted only by circumstance bonuses, status bonuses, and penalties."
So the series of questions is "Is this a statistic gained from the battle form?" If the answer is "yes" then we know that the only things that can modify it are "circumstance bonuses, status bonuses, and penalties". It doesn't matter what else it is, only that it isn't one of those three things.
Fair enough. That does appear to override any other concerns about things that might affect the attacks / abilities listed in the battle form. Unless, of course, an ability specifically references overriding one of those values in a battle form as graystone mentioned.
The question still remains for affects not on the battle form that your gear gives you, and whether something is a constant ability or a passive affect. Not everything your gear does for you is directly related to a special statistic that will be listed on a given battle form.
The rule is "If you take on a battle form with a polymorph spell, the special statistics can be adjusted only by circumstance bonuses, status bonuses, and penalties."
Whether or not they're item bonuses is irrelevant to the point. The rule doesn't say "Can't be affected by item bonuses" it says "If you take on a battle form with a polymorph spell, the special statistics can be adjusted only by circumstance bonuses, status bonuses, and penalties."
So the series of questions is "Is this a statistic gained from the battle form?" If the answer is "yes" then we know that the only things that can modify it are "circumstance bonuses, status bonuses, and penalties". It doesn't matter what else it is, only that it isn't one of those three things.
That puts striking runes right out, but the more serious contention has been over weapon specialization, property runes and other similar options.
There have been some designer posts and CRB inferences that additional damage is considered separate to some degree and therefore not necessarily modifying the special statistics. On the flip side, I've seen more hardline perspectives even suggest that battle forms can't benefit from weaknesses because weakness isn't a status bonus, circumstance bonus or penalty.
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The answer is no, it hasn't been officially cleared up.
I for one believe that property runes, weapon specialization, rage bonuses and similar additions to damage all apply. I even think you can use item bonuses from handwraps of mighty blows if you're a druid with wildshape opting to use your own attack modifiers rather than that of the spell's.
According to rules, the special statistics can be adjusted only by circumstance bonuses, status bonuses, and penalties. This doesn't really exclude any of the above, since they aren't really item bonuses.
The rule is "If you take on a battle form with a polymorph spell, the special statistics can be adjusted only by circumstance bonuses, status bonuses, and penalties."
Whether or not they're item bonuses is irrelevant to the point. The rule doesn't say "Can't be affected by item bonuses" it says "If you take on a battle form with a polymorph spell, the special statistics can be adjusted only by circumstance bonuses, status bonuses, and penalties."
So the series of questions is "Is this a statistic gained from the battle form?" If the answer is "yes" then we know that the only things that can modify it are "circumstance bonuses, status bonuses, and penalties". It doesn't matter what else it is, only that it isn't one of those three things.
Well that's a little sad, I would think that rage and sneak attack should work just fine while wild shaped or in another battle form. Might ruin the dreams of more than a few players intent on picking up multiclass archetypes.
Well that's a little sad, I would think that rage and sneak attack should work just fine while wild shaped or in another battle form. Might ruin the dreams of more than a few players intent on picking up multiclass archetypes.
According to rules, the special statistics can be adjusted only by circumstance bonuses, status bonuses, and penalties. This doesn't really exclude any of the above, since they aren't really item bonuses.
The rule is "If you take on a battle form with a polymorph spell, the special statistics can be adjusted only by circumstance bonuses, status bonuses, and penalties."
Whether or not they're item bonuses is irrelevant to the point. The rule doesn't say "Can't be affected by item bonuses" it says "If you take on a battle form with a polymorph spell, the special statistics can be adjusted only by circumstance bonuses, status bonuses, and penalties."
So the series of questions is "Is this a statistic gained from the battle form?" If the answer is "yes" then we know that the only things that can modify it are "circumstance bonuses, status bonuses, and penalties". It doesn't matter what else it is, only that it isn't one of those three things.
Pretty sure a developer said they thought rage and sneak attack would work somewhere.
They're class abilities, not modifiers that change the form's statistics.
Pretty sure a developer said they thought rage and sneak attack would work somewhere.
They're class abilities, not modifiers that change the form's statistics.
Nah that was just a post talking about the difference between additional damage and damage bonuses. It hasn't been connected to battleforms.
Rage/sneak/weapon spec aren't damage bonuses (in regards to the type of additional damage called bonus) but are additional damage.
The thing is, additional damage is RAW forbidden by the polymorph trait if read literally. RAI I have no idea.
The only way for it to not be counted as an adjustment is if it would be a separate damage roll that occurs after the initial strike's damage has been confirmed and resolved. But this doesn't line up with the way damage is resolved as per the CRB.
Again, RAI I don't know... be nice if we had a FAQ replacement though. Guess we have to just hope paizo chooses to do another errata in the future and tells us when they make the change so we know it has occurred.
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“If you take on a battle form with a polymorph spell, the special statistics can be adjusted only by circumstance bonuses, status bonuses, and penalties.”
go to CRB page 301 to read the deal in it’s entirety
I cannot speak to what others would consider falls into the ‘adjust a special statistic’ category
for me, that’d be anything which changed any of the listed special statistics
that is, any modification which is
- not a circumstance bonus
- not a status bonus
- not a penalty
would seem to be outside of what is allowed to change those special statistics
as for the
“Your gear is absorbed into you; the constant abilities of your gear still function, but you can’t activate any items.”
I took that to mean like
my Brooch of Shielding still absorbs Magic Missile spells (not a modification of the special statistics, so fine)
but not something like
my corrosive rune still adds 1d6 acid damage to the damage dealt (a modification of the special statistic of damage, which is not a circumstance bonus, not a status bonus, not a penalty, so not allowed to adjust that special statistic)
After all this time some things about battle forms still continues to baffle me a little. I have seen these questions before, but I never have gotten any definitive answers to these. So do you apply handwraps striking runes to battle form attacks?
The striking runes are active. I consider the number of damage dice to be one of the special statistics, therefore it is not changed.
Most people agree with this , but it technically arguable as special statistics are not well defined.
What about property runes?
Yes they can be active on Handwraps for example
Do you add your weapon specialization damage to the attacks if use your own attack modifier?
Yes because they are additional damage, and additional damage is not specified in the spell description.
Its not really arguable as we have a quote from the designer Mark to support this, but lots of people don't like it.
According to rules, the special statistics can be adjusted only by circumstance bonuses, status bonuses, and penalties. This doesn't really exclude any of the above, since they aren't really item bonuses. The rules also say: "Your gear is absorbed into you; the constant abilities of your gear still function, but you can’t activate any items"Are the striking runes or property runes constant abilities of your gear? I don't think striking runes are intended to work, since the forms have different amount of die between options to begin with, but according to rules it kinda sounds like they do. I lean towards them not working and property runes working. Weapon specialization shouldn't work, because the forms say that you are trained with the attacks, but what about when you use your own modifier? Do you also use your own proficiency in a sense that you apply your weapon specialization to the attacks, since when you use your own modifier, you might be expert or higher with unarmed attacks.
The key point is if something is specified you can't change it. But the converse is true - if it is not specified you can, without limits.
The bonuses really only apply to checks, skill checks, attack rolls. So circumstance bonuses, status bonuses, and penalties are the only exception that can change what is specified, and really only for these checks.
I have really long list of the rules problems with the Battle Forms and explanations here. I update it often when people make good points.
So far Paizo are happy to leave it to each GM to work out.
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So far Paizo are happy to leave it to each GM to work out
I've discussed things with a few PFS GMs and about the only consensus they seem to have is that
1) Monks flurry of blows definitely works2) The bonus to hit from a handwrap likely works (I THINK they all said yes but aren't sure)
3) Sod the rules, you can break out of a grapple
So, for PFS, as a pragmatic matter I think you can expect significant amounts of variation so you either
1) Check with your GM in advance and be prepared to live with their restrictions, bring in a new character, or skip the game
2) Bring in a monk :-).
MOST of the disagreements are going to be fairly minor. If the GM disallows hand wraps then you're -1 to hit, hardly a disaster. If they disallow sneak attack you do less damage but you still do competitive damage. etc.
But the bottom line is that the only person who knows how it will work at a particular table is the GM. All discussions on this topic will eventually reach that conclusion.
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